Dan: Hello and welcome
to the quantum divide.

This is the podcast that talks
about the literal divide between

classical IT and quantum technology,
and the fact that these two domains

need to become closer together.

Quantum networking actually is
more futuristic than perhaps

the computing element of it.

But we're going to try
and focus on that domain.

But we're bound to experience many
different tangents both in podcast

topics and conversation as we go on.

Enjoy.

Hello and welcome to the next
episode of the quantum divide.

This has been, I've been really looking
forward to this session, partly because of

the break we've had in the summer, we've
all been soaking up some of the rays,

but also because of the speaker we've got

welcome Maria, Gregera Garces.

Gregera Garces.

Yeah, good.

Fantastic.

Thank you for joining us today.

Both Steve and I here and we agreed
to have a chat I'm super interested

in your path into quantum and perhaps
that's a good place to start, right?

I understand you're an undergraduate.

So give us a bit of a story of how
you got into physics, mathematics

and ultimately how you're now
working in the quantum field.

Maria: Yeah.

So I actually started with a degree
in mathematics and physics at the

University of Bath, and midway
through my first year, COVID started.

Of course, I got a very
interesting first start.

part of my undergrad.

And after the second year we were allowed
to choose to go on a placement year,

which is basically just a year long
internship that some UK universities do.

So I decided to do that and I ended
up in Cisco as a data analyst.

And very quickly into my data analyst
journey, I realized that was maybe

not exactly what I wanted to do.

So I had the great opportunity to.

Being a company which I was allowed
to just spend time doing other things

as long as I was okay doing my role.

And fortunately, I was doing a lot
of data pipeline stuff, and because

I had a background in coding, I
could basically automate that.

So I just went up to my manager in Cisco
and asked him, hey, can I do other stuff?

And he was like, absolutely.

As long as...

The requirements are done,
you can do whatever you want.

So I started basically knocking
on people's doors, virtually, but

still, and ended up meeting somebody
called Santana Ganguly who was

an engineer at Cisco at the time.

And I asked him if they were working
in quantum technologies, because I had

heard about it and I was interested.

So he's yes we are, of
course, come with me.

And he just...

brought me into the quantum
networking research and development

team that was partially in
Europe and partially in States.

And they pretty much just immediately
welcomed me in, which was really

interesting place to be because
it's really difficult to get into

quantum, especially in the research
and development side of things.

But I just found the perfect door.

And the team was also, they weren't
experts in quantum networking,

they were experts in networking,
and they had physics backgrounds.

They were learning with me, and they
were reading all these papers, going to

all these meetings with the Center of
Quantum Networks in the United States,

which is a collaborator of Cisco, and
just trying to learn as much as possible.

And I was able to sit on that
train and learn with them.

And after a couple of months,
I also started contributing.

So I started doing some of their
software work and we started

trying out different ideas.

And it was really interesting
and special place to be at after

my internship finished, I was
hooked on quantum at that point.

So I continued working.

I ended up working for Semen
Krasnov, which is who is a.

Professor at UMRS in the States.

I wrote an error correction
library for him at the time.

There was a big boom in error correction.

So I ended up doing error mitigation
libraries for different startups and I

continued doing that throughout the year.

And then the next summer
I've started working in my

current role, which is an IBM.

So I'm working with the community
team and I'm working in promoting

quantum and working with partners
that IBM has . So it's been a really

short ride, but a very fun one.

Dan: I'm interested to know if when
you were doing your mathematics and

physics courses at university, did you
have your eye on quantum at any point?

Or is it just one of the fields
perhaps that you could have gone into?

Maria: I think it was one of the fields.

So I started with a really straight
idea that I want to do mathematics.

And mind you, I'm not even in mathematics
and physics course anymore, so it

went, it went sideways very fast.

And I started with this really big
passion in mathematics but I decided

I didn't want to just do math.

So I honestly picked physics,
like how you pick, this,

Specific salad you want at lunch.

It doesn't really matter
to you, but it's here.

It's on the side, just in case you made a
mistake, and it was great because I did.

I realized that very quickly.

I didn't necessarily I like math.

I've always really like
mathematics, but I don't like the

abstraction in pure mathematics.

I like a middle ground between maybe
the engineering and the pure abstraction

and that's where physics came in.

And as I.

started learning more
and more about physics.

I just fell in love with it.

I stopped courses.

I'm doing a pure physics course right now.

And within that, I've started
looking for different things.

So because there was an industry at the
time when I did my swap into quantum

I knew quantum was big in industry
and it wasn't like a purely academic.

little sphere.

There were other opportunities
outside of just academia.

And that was really attractive to me.

Cause I thought maybe I don't want
to go down the pure academic path.

And maybe I don't want to go
down the pure industry path.

Maybe I want the mix and
quantum allowed that.

And then I just asked and I got in.

So it was pretty much just a set
of coincidences of just being open

to other opportunities and being
proactive and looking for them.

Dan: That's often the way life goes.

That's really good advice to anybody
trying to get into the field,

especially an undergraduate or anybody
that's trying to get into the field.

I found that there's a huge amount of
mathematics, which is key to really

understanding a lot of the fundamentals.

And Steve, I think we should do a series
on some of the different mathematics

that we think are necessary for to build
up to the Schrodinger equation to, to

understand wave functions and so on.

And then also controlling qubits.

And so I think we should do
that as a series later on.

What do you think?

Steve: Yeah, it's sounds like a good idea
because there's a lot of mathematics and

which mathematics apply to quantum is
it's not trivial to know that, so yeah

Dan: Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

There's a little bit of calculus.

There's a little bit of group
theory, probably not much.

And Lots of differential
equations and so on.

So there's a, but not
everything is in there, right?

So real analysis and so
on is the depth of that.

It's probably not so necessary,
but Hey Maria, back to you.

So what an interesting story and
kind of journey you've had where are

you hoping it's going to lead you?

Maria: Oh, that's a great question.

I do not know.

So I think in the short
term, the goal is to end PhD.

So wherever that's applying this year
or in a year or two, I don't really mind

that much, but I've found that currently
most of the opportunities in quantum are

locked behind that little door of the PhD.

So I think in the short
term it's doing that.

And whilst I do that, I want
to see if academia is something

I would be interested in.

I like the idea of academia, but
I've also heard horror stories.

So we'll see how that path goes.

And then whilst I do that, I still
want to engage with industry and have

it as another side of the coin and
as another side of the opportunity.

But honestly, for now, it's just
continuing doing what I've been doing.

It's just continuing having my
doors open, learning as much as I

can about anything I've been given
the opportunity to learn about, and

just following the opportunities
and the different leads that appear.

Generally, I don't really have that.

Big of a goal set in mind.

I don't necessarily know.

I want to work in this specific
qubit for networking purposes

or for computational purposes.

I don't really mind.

I think the opportunities
will come by themselves.

And I think that's the way to
go about it, especially in such

a new field within industry.

Dan: Yeah.

For an industry that's booming
so, so much, it is going to be

and is needing lots of skilled
people who don't have PhDs, but.

You're right.

If you want to be in research that's,
that really is the last hurdle

that you have to get over, right?

Maria: Yeah, hopefully, I'm hoping that
will change to be honest, because that

was what was happening in the AI world
back in like the early 2000s, right?

You only could do AI if you had a PhD.

If you look at the current
Researchers and professors are

teaching AI in universities.

They didn't have PhDs in AI because
there wasn't such a thing as a PhD in AI.

But that field slowly started moving
out of that, let's not say obsession,

but that Just habit of requiring a PhD
as it slowly moves out of academia,

and I think quantum might do that.

The only issue is that it's not doing
it as fast as it needs necessarily.

So that's where you get that little
loss in between how many people

you actually need for a specific
project or for a specific goal and

how many people you're getting.

And I think this swap is going to happen.

But slowly, and I'm not
good at waiting around.

I've got to be honest.

I like doing things.

So at least for me, I'm going to go
with what is required right now, but I'm

hoping for the sake of the field that
changes slowly in the next few years.

Steve: I can also comment on this a bit.

I think the reason is at the
moment, quantum is a very

academic field in the first place.

So I think as things become more applied,
as things become closer to the business

perspectives, making money with quantum,
that's when things will start to change.

Right now, it's mostly an
academic field where people doing.

Research.

Is it going to work?

Is it not going to work?

We'd have, we don't know.

We're just doing research, seeing
what happens for, build some paths,

follow them, see which ones survive.

And then once the paths become
more solid, I think that's when the

transition from not needing a PhD to
not having a PhD will start to come up.

Maria: Yes, no, absolutely.

I agree.

I think right now it makes sense
that it's mostly PhDs and professors

working in the field, especially
because they are the ones who build it.

They're the ones who start it.

And I have a little story from
my time at Cisco, in which that

very clearly showcases that
the need for very fed people.

I remember very early on when I
joined the team, I was handed papers.

And if you've Done undergraduate
physics, you might know that,

especially in the first couple of
years, that you don't even read a paper.

You don't know what an academic paper is.

It's not presented to you ever.

And I arrived at Cisco, and just
handpapers were put on my table, and they

were like, oh yeah, read these next week.

We'll discuss them.

And I was like, oh my god.

But I remember Engineer at the
time there who was very senior

and had seen everything at this
point, his name was Paul Pelagos.

He took me and he was like, Maria,
do you know what a Hamiltonian is?

And I just looked at him and I was
like, no, because okay, we're going to

do little one on ones and I'm going to
teach you the little math and the little

quantum mechanics that you're missing.

And I was like, Thank you.

And it was definitely, obviously, I do
understand that in most organizations you

can't have that type of like one to one
mentoring in which people are teaching

you from scratch quantum mechanics that
you learn at a postgraduate level and they

are having the patience to explain papers
to you and they're having the patience

to go bit by bit on why these systems
so that's why you have that requirement

for PhDs and professors on that type
of highly level academic requirements

right now that it makes sense.

But at the same time, there has
to be a realization that there

isn't enough PhDs in the world to
deal with what quantum what we're

predicting quantum is going to be.

So there will have to be this
investment in quantum education in

the future workforce of this field.

And I think that's happening right now.

But more slowly that I think is necessary.

Dan: yeah, and on the flip side, industry
is developing massively, and there's a lot

of investment going into, there's loads
of different quantum computing companies

out there now developing different
computing systems, or often based on

different maybe concepts or techniques.

And now a lot of those organizations
are funded or working in, hand

in hand with a university or
series of universities as well.

They often spin outs but any organization
like that, quantum computing or quantum

orientated company, maybe creating
sensors or whatever they're going

to need, of course, they're going
to need engineers and developers.

And maybe some of those folks may be
at PhD level or beyond, but you're

also going to need project managers.

You're going to need Hardware architects,
you're going to need all kinds of

different roles, architects, perhaps,
and service managers, and especially

if you're then offering the service,
as over the cloud or something like

many of these providers are doing,
then you've got the whole management

wrap that needs to sit around it.

So there's definitely a blossoming
Kind of ecosystem, of different roles,

which are going to be building up.

Yeah, one one thing that I have a
question for you on is around open source.

That's interesting to me because I haven't
really had the chance, I'm looking at

the industry and a lot of depth, but I
haven't looked into what's open source and

what's happening in the open source world.

Steve, I know you, you've been doing
some stuff in that area, but maybe

if we start with you, Maria . What
do you know about open source as

a whole when it comes to quantum?

Can you give me a high level view?

Is that even possible?

And do you contribute to open source?

Maria: Yeah, so I think the way I was
able to continue doing quantum whilst I

was still a student, whilst I am still
a student was through open source.

So I'll tell you a little bit about how
my journey through this open source world

started and then I think that'll give
you a good view of how a person may start

and what type of opportunities are there.

So the First way in
for me was a hackathon.

There is a hackathon that happens on
a yearly basis and it's funded by the

Unitary Fund and it's called Unitary
Hack I think and there's a 2022

version, 2033 version, 2034 version
and it's an incredible hackathon

because they take in projects from
all around the quantum ecosystem.

Mind you, it might be quantum computing,
it might be quantum networking,

it might be quantum anything.

And they take in these open source
projects and they put up bounties

for different challenges or different
problems that somebody may need to

solve within this software, right?

And I...

I joined that hackathon just out of I
want to do something with this quantum

knowledge that I have, and I've discovered
this entire world of the open source

community that exists in quantum.

It's actually quite diverse
and grown quite fast.

I think one of the biggest products,
if you think about quantum software

that anybody starts with, it's
Qiskit, which is an IBM product.

And their code is open
source, and it comes...

Constantly has challenges published
and anybody can go in and decide okay,

the way I'm going to learn quantum
is by taking this little issue and

solving it and I'm going to start
from scratch with the Qiskit textbook.

I'm going to learn all of that.

I'm going to learn how
to use the software.

I'm going to try to understand
what the problem is.

I'm going to solve that.

So that's a way of learning
through open source, right?

There's a lot of projects that's
and that simulate quite a lot of

different functions that quantum
computers or quantum systems would do.

And the goal of open source is to create
these products that are open for everybody

and that allow researchers to research
with them and simulate things with them,

but also to teach people in the process.

That's what my journey has
been through open source.

I've participated in multiple hackathons
that had this as an objective.

It's not always necessarily software.

There's non software projects that also
exist within the open source community.

So I participate in, I think it
was the European quantum internet

hackathon, or maybe it was a
world quantum internet hackathon.

And in that hackathon, what I did is I
worked with a team in order to create an

evaluation system on how quantum computers
might be more green or more eco friendly.

And we literally just.

Take every single qubit type, the type of
calling it needed, the type of resources

that needed, and just literally created a
table that's still considered open source.

It might not be software open source, but
it's still a contribution that's going to

be open to everybody and that everybody
can read and that everybody can learn

from that's out there usually on GitHub.

So it's quite an interesting
way of getting into quantum by

avoiding that academic path.

It's definitely rare, but there's
a lot of communities out there,

especially in this school.

There's communities dedicated
to different types of people.

So there's communities
that are open to everybody.

There's communities dedicated to students.

There's communities are dedicated
to graduate students that are

interested in joining this field
after doing some background in a

degree in mathematics or in physics.

There's a lot of little subcultures
in it, which makes it really fun.

And then there's really big projects
that happen on a yearly basis, like

the Womanium Hackathon, in which you're
taught everything you need to know.

And it takes three weeks, and it's
super intense, but it's completely

free and open to everybody.

So there's a lot to learn from open
source, you just need to start like

scratching the surface and continuing
seeing what the different projects are.

Dan: Yeah, you mentioned quite
a few different opportunities

for learning there.

And I've discovered that in terms of the
amount of free education that's out there.

And I think that's part of the industry
trying to encourage the types of

resources and people that it needs, right?

So in terms of open source projects, are
there any that specifically that you've?

contributed to that
you'd like to talk about?

I think there's a few in some of those
different hackathons, but is there any

one particular you'd like to highlight?

Maria: I think the first
open source project that ever

contributed to was called Sequence.

Now there's A few quantum
networking simulators out there.

A very popular one, a very well known
one, is Netsquid, which is supported and

maintained by QTech, but there's all, but
the issue with Netsquid, is always that

it's not necessarily fully open source.

At least at the time that I
was working with it, it wasn't.

So I started exploring other open
source projects that were out there.

And one of those was Sequence, which is
a, I think it was by Argon Laboratories.

And they basically simulate
quantum networks with the different

items that you might wanna do.

And that's how I started.

That was the origin story.

Before we, I started with hackathons and I
did things like the Google Summer of code.

And that specific project was really fun
because what I did is I started trying

to build a specific experimental setup
that was supposed to measure Bell states.

And I was only trying to learn
how to use the software, I wasn't

actually trying to contribute to it.

But I very quickly realized I was
missing an item in my experimental

setup and that was a mirror.

There was no mirror element
in the software whatsoever.

So I was, by that time I was being
helped by researchers at Northern

Arizona University and my mentor there
said, Hey, build it build the mirror

element and add it to the software.

And that's what I did.

And then once I had this element and
I knew it was working because the

software wasn't what it was supposed
to, the simulation was working.

I was like, okay, I'm just
going to submit it as an element

into the project and see if.

And they did, and they
pushed it into the project.

So that was my first little experience.

Then another big experience and another
big thing that I contributed to was

Julia's Clifford Gate Simulator.

And that was a very big project.

That was my first big library.

And I was able to do that
through Google Summer of Code.

So there is this misunderstanding
that open source is always,

you're always there for free.

You always have to do it in your own time.

That's not necessarily true.

There's a lot of funding available.

Might not be as big as obviously
doing an internship or having a job.

But it's a little bit of funding
that can help you be able to get

that time to work on these projects.

So the Google Summer of Code is like
a yearly program that happens during

summer, in which you can basically
get in contact with different people

doing open source, not just in
quantum, but in absolutely everything.

And get some funding to work on their
projects or a bit of the projects.

And that's what I did.

I got some funding to work on a
error correction library for an

existing Clifford Gates simulator.

So that was my first big project that
took like multiple months to work in.

I think there's The most like the
ones that touched me the most.

I've done little projects after that.

I've contributed to code
and no code projects.

I have my own no code
projects available in Github.

I keep a very big log of every single
paper I ever read that I find interesting

and I upload it to Github every now
and then and that's completely open

for anybody to like upload things.

I also have a list of YouTube channels
for people to learn from quantum.

From that context, you can see I'm
really into teaching other people and

sharing my knowledge with other people.

But I think those two projects, the
sequence project and the Clifford

Gates simulator were like the ones
that impacted me the most, cause

they brought me into open source.

Even though at the time
I didn't quite know that.

Dan: Cool, yeah, lots of
interesting topics there.

Thanks for putting everything on GitHub.

I've been using your YouTube list.

It's pretty, pretty useful.

It's introduced me to a few people.

Maybe this is a sign of
where your career might go.

Who knows?

Maria: Yeah.

that's what I'm doing
at the moment in IBM.

I'm doing like education side of things,
but I find it really interesting.

I'm just I also still long for
the research side of things.

It's like the divide,

Dan: yeah, no doubt.

Please, provide all of the links to
all of these These repositories and

your contributions, and we'll put
them in the show notes, of course.

Just a side topic.

I've noticed a lot of the
education programs that are

put on are based on the summer.

Have you noticed that?

There's the IBM one, the Google one.

I think there are others as well.

I'm sorry if I haven't mentioned them.

This is obviously based
around students, isn't it?

They've got the summer off.

What are they going to do?

They're hungry for more.

More things to do, obviously.

Do you think there'll be a
Christmas one coming up soon?

Maria: I think it will.

So it's a bit weird because a lot
of the training happens in summer.

But then if you look at the
actual hackathons and the actual

events, they actually happen
quite a lot during the year.

They're just last one then because
obviously they're not introductions.

They're like, you already
know what you're doing.

You can participate in these things.

So it almost feels like you've
got the summer to prepare and

then the year to participate.

But they're all.

Little training programs
that happen during the year.

So there is a full fest, which is like
for Spanish speakers which is also

obviously happens in fall, not in summer.

But yeah, no, you're definitely right.

It is really, at least the training.

At the start is really focused on
students simply because they're

a big population that we're going
to need in the future of quantum.

The reality is that if you're
training, you need to train a future

workforce and, whatever field you're
in, that means training students.

So there's definitely a focus
towards STEM students and

towards engaging them in quantum.

now.

It's, hey, in 10.

15 years time, can you please
remember quantum computers exist?

You know a little bit about them, you're
a bit interested, maybe we'll need you,

I think that's more the perspective.

At least I'm seeing in terms
of doing training for students.

It's a, we might not need you right
this second, but give us 10 years

and we might have a job for you.

Dan: Yeah, I think as you're an IBM
Qiskit advocate at the moment, or

an intern, sorry perhaps you can
advocate for a a Christmas IBM school

and call it Kissmas, yeah, dad jokes.

Let me let me go on.

I also Maria, I also wanted to ask you
about the mirror that you, you wrote.

And was it the sequence software
that you contributed, the mirror?

I'm intrigued to know what
it is the mirror is doing.

Is this it simulating the,
is it simulating the an

optical table or something?

And the mirror is a object
on the table or is it?

Maria: Yes, that's pretty much it.

So it was mirror like I was basically
trying to create an optical table.

So there's this program that's called I
think it's VQ away or something like that,

which is like a very simple simulator
and which is it feels like scratch like

you literally just drag items into your
optical table and it simulates that.

So in the paper that
Publishes that software.

There was different setups that they
proposed, and one of those setups

was a beate measurement setup.

And it, the mirror just send a like
array from like the ver horizontal

side of things to the vertical one.

Like it didn't have any effect on anything
on latency or frequency or anything.

So the item's pretty
much it's really simple.

It's just changing the angle of a ray,
and that was at the time really hard

for me to code, because it was the first
time I was doing it, but in, in itself,

the project was incredibly simple.

I'm pretty sure it broke when
it was uploaded to the project

itself, and some of the managers
of the project had to fix it.

Really normal in quantum open source
projects or in any open source project,

when you're contributing for the
first time, you are going to break

things and it's not going to work out.

And it's going to be like incredibly
simple, but that's how you start.

That's how you start actually
contributing and doing things.

You need to break things.

Before you are able to do things.

I think back when I was at Cisco, I shut
down a supercomputer for a day because

I threw way too many shots into it.

I was doing this massive simulation that
I definitely didn't need to be doing.

I just decided to add zeros.

It was like instead of a hundred, why
don't I do 10, 000 of these repetitions.

And I broke it.

And that's kind of part
of the learning journey.

You need to participate in the project.

You need to break the project.

You need to do a hundred
revisions to your update.

And then when it's actually
joined to the project, it's

broken and you need to fix it.

And that's the path I have.

There's one Qiskit item that I have
been working on for a year and it's

still not working, but that's okay.

That's what open source is.

You're learning as you're contributing
to these projects and in a way

you're contributing to like the
ability that other people will have

in future to use these projects.

Dan: Yeah, that's a good attitude.

I think you're exuding kind
of your determination to just

keep plugging away at it.

And it doesn't matter if things break,
as long as you're in a sandbox or

a lab, then that's absolutely fine.

Every time it breaks,
you learn something new.

That's the best way to look at it.

Maria: Exactly.

Steve: All right.

. So I'm the one who I'm always
thinking about communication.

So I'm thinking of, okay,
we talked about open source.

We talked a lot about quantum computing.

Quantum computing is very popular,
no doubt about that, especially

relative to quantum communications.

But when we look at what people
think is going to be the first use

case for quantum, it's probably
something like quantum sensors,

maybe quantum key distribution.

So one could potentially argue there
should be some more importance on

quantum communication, at least in the
terms of what people are thinking about.

But I get these problems
are less interesting.

They're more about optical
engineering, but problems will

be potentially the first business
making problems that will be solved.

So my question is basically what do
you think about the divide of quantum

computing and quantum communication
in terms of, what people are being

trained for, what people contribute
to open source, the projects that

are available, just from your
perspective what do you think?

Maria: Yeah, I think it's both a
blessing and a curse situation.

So there is a lot of hype around
quantum computing, and that comes with

a lot of negative connotations because
there's a lot of false preachers around.

Like, when I talk about quantum
computing or quantum networking or

any other type of quantum technology,
I make a really big point of letting

people know what my background is,
that I'm an undergraduate student.

I haven't even graduated.

I've only been in the
industry for two years.

Anything I say is...

Probably wrong and that's okay.

But Not everybody does that.

Not everybody's completely
open about their understanding.

And even if you're a professor
in quantum computing and you're

teaching at a university level,
honestly, you don't know everything.

It's impossible.

Anybody who claims they understand
quantum mechanics or quantum

computing just doesn't quite get it.

And the issue that comes with
that is when you get something

to be very popular you end up...

Promising more than you can achieve.

And I think there's a situation that
is happening quite a lot, especially

in startups, quantum computing.

They don't quite understand the
issues or the big problems that come

with the word quantum computing.

And that's not always the case.

There's a lot of startups
doing amazing work out there.

I'm putting out just incredible
programs and hardware, but it is a

symptom of the popularity, right?

But then when you go into other
technologies, there are less hype.

It's less synonymous to AI or ML, right?

It's less shiny, it's less fancy.

And therefore you end up with teams and
with people working much more grounded

projects in my, at least in my experience.

And you end up with people who have a
much better understanding of what the

specific issues they need to solve before
the next step are, rather than getting

all these noise and all these opinions.

So I definitely think that it's
more interesting to be there.

Because at the end of the day, you are
learning, at least from my experience, you

are learning more how to solve a specific
engineering problem than fighting with

these like false profits and false ideas.

but on the other hand,
you end up with less.

Budget, you end up with less
interest from customers.

You end up from with the
need to explain why these

technologies need to exist, right?

If you think about quantum
networking specifically, people

don't quite get why you would want
to create a new way of communication

with quantum security, right?

You need to I don't know how
to explain why it's a problem.

Why do we need cryptography?

Why do we need post quantum cryptography?

And why do we need it now?

I'm less familiar with quantum sensors,
but from my understanding, quantum

sensors are like one of the most
advanced quantum technologies out

there, and they're barely talked about.

And it's really a shame, because it
could be like the first little Item that

we can show to the world of all these
technologies look what they're bringing

us to and the computers are interesting,
but I think we're getting confused

between what are quantum technologies as
a whole, and what is the side of quantum

technologies with this computer side,
and I think that just comes because

it gets Joint with other hype fields.

If you think AI, what's the
biggest problem AI has there is

a limit to what AI can do, right?

There's a limit to the computer.

Oh, maybe quantum computer
is a solution to that.

And that type of thought, it's
not necessarily negative, but it

takes away from necessarily what
the technology may bring us to.

It's not a tool for AI.

It might actually not be that good for AI,
but it's a tool maybe for other things.

I'm not saying it
shouldn't be used for AI.

I'm just saying it's interesting how
society as a whole and industry as a whole

has taken in these words and maybe changed
their meaning from the original purpose.

And maybe that's a good thing
and maybe that's a bad thing.

But what it is leading us to is this
misunderstanding that quantum computing.

Is quantum technologies and
that's not necessarily it.

Steve: Yeah, makes sense.

Because I agree, it's a lot of the
problems that people have in their

day to day job, especially in their
studies, it's more about computing,

running programs, solving problems,
machine learning, AI, these are topic.

Maria: what you're familiar

with.

Yeah.

Steve: So it's not very often that
someone, during their studies, they

encounter Sensors, maybe unless they're
studying physics specifically, but

in mathematics, computer science,
physics, who knows, you always

encounter programming somewhere.

And then, just a natural extension of
their knowledge goes to quantum computing.

Maria: with networking, like I,
I had never even thought about

networking before I joined Cisco.

I don't really know.

It was something I just say,
the Internet's out there.

I know it's a game of waves and I've
got, I know I've got a router at home and

that's as much as I knew of networking.

And I already got Cisco and I was
like, Oh my God, this is a field.

And this is a lot of stuff.

And then instead of going into the
classical version of that, I went

to the quantum version of that.

So it's a bit weird because there are
fields that not everybody's familiar

with and not everybody knows about.

And obviously there's people who get
like network engineering degrees.

Obviously, I'm not saying everybody
doesn't know anything about that.

I'm just saying that the, maybe
the classical person that went into

quantum physics back in the day was a
physicist and therefore they may not

have had that big of an understanding
of all the other opportunities.

that they could do with
these technologies.

And that's the interesting bit we're
in right now, in which it's getting

open to more than just physicists, and
you're starting to get chemists, you're

starting to get engineers, you're starting
to get, like, all these other people

who are still very highly academically
prepared, who are saying, hey, wait

a minute, this sounds interesting.

Maybe we can simulate my little
molecule with your computer, or, hey,

maybe we can connect these two nodes?

For my telecommunications system.

It's interesting to see how it's
being open to people who are not

physicists and how that's really
positively impacting the opportunities

that we're seeing within the field.

Dan: I think that opens up the services
market as well, significantly for people

that can provide consulting around
how to implement quantum technologies

correctly for the, their specific business
needs, and that might be very specific

technology technology outcomes, or it
may be particular optimization problems.

I think these are the kind of
things that we're seeing here in the

market already with some success.

Now, just sticking on the network topic.

Yeah, what's your view?

Give us an overview of your perspective on
quantum networking, having spent a little

bit of time at Cisco considering you
didn't have that networking background,

and maybe that could be an interesting
conversation for us to continue because

obviously you've got, we've talked at
length on this podcast about quantum

cryptography quantum security, quantum
Networking both outside of a quantum

device and also inside a quantum
device between different components.

What are your, what have you
seen in the papers you've read?

Perhaps put it that way.

And what are your thoughts?

Maria: There's a few things.

So I and I'm hope I'm not making
any mistakes while I say that,

because again, I've worked in
that field for very little time.

I think quantum networking
is incredibly interesting.

I've loved it when I worked in it,
and I'm hoping that if I am able to

continue through the academic path, I
can continue through quantum networking.

But the reason why I loved it so
much is because there's so much

to do it with quantum computing.

We don't quite understand what
we're doing with quantum networking,

at least from my perspective.

And maybe it's just
because I didn't get it.

It's worth throwing darts in the
dark and we're seeing what works.

If we look at the papers.

You see a lot of repeated names, right?

There's maybe three or four institutions
that are constantly putting out let's

just say very high level and quote
unquote usable research in quantum

networking as in Existing field rather
than a theoretical field, right?

If you think quantum networking and
you think academia, most of the time

you think QTech, then you have other
groups that are working quantum

networking and you have the center
point of networks in the United States.

Then you also, for example, a
couple months ago, there was

the first quantum networking.

It wasn't necessarily done by quantum
networks, but the, first safe quantum

post cryptography call done and in
Madrid actually, which is where I'm from.

So this is why I know this
that was done by universities.

That, so that was really interesting, but
there's not, it's going slower in terms of

the amounts of papers that are coming out.

And it's definitely really
interesting, but a lot of the.

requirements to make quantum
networking advance is to create

quantum networks and break quantum
networks and build quantum networks.

But to create a testbed, you're
going to take a few years.

And then when you create the
testbed, you test it once.

Once you test it, it works.

Now you need to expand it.

So give it another one or two years to
expand that and create more and more.

So it's, and then once you've.

created those suspects.

And once you made it work, you need
to implement it into a technology.

That's even more time, right?

And there's less people working on it.

There's less startups.

There's less big companies
interested in it.

So it's definitely.

An interesting place to be in
because you can do so much, right?

There's so many opportunities and
there's so many places that you can

go and so many things that you can do.

But it's definitely, it definitely
requires some strong willingness to

learn and some strong willingness.

to, because you need to understand
what quantum computers are.

You need to understand what
quantum cryptography is.

You need to have a little
understanding of what networking

is, even though I skipped that.

You need to understand, what
quantum information to its core is

and how we're manipulating it and
what type of things might affect

it once you create a connection.

Then you need to start thinking
about the most mathematically.

Soundproof to actually create this
connection over a large network whilst

you're working with simulators that cannot
actually simulate these networks because

you need a quantum computer to do that.

So it's, I think it's really interesting.

I think it's a really big field.

I think there's a lot to do in it.

I absolutely loved it.

I found it incredibly interesting
because it took in so many

different bits of all the quantum
technologies and put them together

into a big solid list of problems.

And it's also just, it's also just cool I
just, I'll write just a nice place to be

at Atlanta, but we're give it 10 years,
15 years, maybe 20 years, it's not coming

soon, at least, maybe I'm wrong, maybe
since I left Cisco or other companies like

Juniper Networks decided that they found
the Holy Grail and they're just, they're

going to tell us any moment now, but I
think we're going to wait a little bit,

and that's the cool bit of it, because
it means you can have a career in it,

because it's not going to appear tomorrow.

Dan: Yes, pioneering stuff.

Absolutely.

And, most of the investment beyond
QKD, which is a real technology now.

And, there's many manufacturers out
there with with big, especially the

likes of Toshiba with a lot of success.

But ultimately what they're
doing is just is sending photons

over, over the link, right?

Point to point.

Over a dark fiber and everything
intelligent or everything advanced shall I

say is happening on the end device itself
Which to somebody that works at Cisco

and has had a lifetime in networking.

I wouldn't really call that networking
I just call that connecting two

things together with a with an
optical cable But it is because

there's distance involved, right?

Yeah, but the more advanced stuff, which
includes repeaters, more entanglement,

more call it whatever you want.

And that's the stuff that is
definitely 20 years out, I'm sure.

And it's going to be crazy to, to
follow the development of it over time.

Steve,

Steve: Yeah, I thinking the same it's,
but it's a, at least a defined path.

What do we need to do to get there?

I think.

So from my perspective, although one
could argue the practicality of QKD, yes

or no, but for me, there's one obvious
answer that it is practical, at least,

maybe not in what it's meant to be doing.

That's fine.

If it's secure or not, I don't
like to argue these points.

But developing quantum networks, I
think, relies on the development of QKD.

It's, for me, the stepping
stone application.

So once that's done, there's
so many doors that open up.

So I think, we're following
this trajectory of QKD.

On the side, we have these arguments, and
NIST is saying something, I don't know,

all these organizations saying something
there's back and forth now, who's right,

who's wrong for me, it doesn't matter.

What's the point as a scientist,
it's about building, finding

something out that's not known.

And yeah, I think that's the,
at least if you follow it from

that trajectory, you see how well

the development path of QKD is, especially
in terms of what happens on the side

about standardization organizations.

Working together, collaboration
between countries.

All those things that are happening
for QKD will eventually happen for, I

don't know, entanglement distribution,
or bigger scale quantum networks.

So I think this is just
like a training ground.

We're just doing something with QKD
and it's working, and I think that's

why I believe quantum networks will
exist at some, at some point in time.

I don't, can't predict
the timeline, but...

Yeah it's nice to see that it's
developing and it's maybe a predictor.

I think we could easily say 10 years,
we'll have some big developments

because you can just traject with QKD.

Dan: maybe you don't know the answer
to this question, but is that because

of the entanglement based protocols,
which are Are being used over long links

and then the entanglement is used in
the algorithms to identify a key or to

ensure that there's nobody interfering.

Is it the use of that entanglement
then in future systems or

networks of some kind that.

gives you that feel that
it's a stepping stone.

Steve: So QKD at the moment, the
most popular protocols don't use

entanglement, at least not in a way
that, quantum repeaters use entanglement.

Okay.

The ones that are commercially available.

That's not to say they don't exist
protocols that use entanglement like

that, but the ones that have the

Dan: they're . So they're
preparing measure.

Is that right?

They are sending photons and measuring
them as they go across the link and

then manipulating and managing that

Steve: Yes.

The ones that you can buy, like
Toshiba's platform, ID Quantique, Huawei.

I think they're all
prepare and measure based.

I could be wrong, I did double check,
but I'm almost certain that's the case.

So that's one thing.

Making entanglement, distributing
entanglement, making the

fidelity high enough to use.

It's very challenging.

That's why I think.

Yeah, that's not why it's not,
that's why I think it's not sold yet.

It's too noisy, but it's coming I think
every day you see a new result every week

There's a result in entanglement fidelity
up caught the memory today two papers

out Coincidentally had the same distance
101 kilometers very precise I don't know

if it's the same network or not I have
to read the papers, but I saw even just

this morning some interesting things
happening Over longer distances with

entanglement, so it's a matter of waiting.

I think

Dan: Yeah, but it's such an
expensive option, isn't it?

Compared to Post quantum cryptography,
quantum safe algorithms and things.

And it's not only is it expensive,
it's restrictive in terms of needing a

dark fiber a point to point connection.

And in time, I guess we want to see.

Both of those things change
for it to become a bigger part

of the quantum internet, if,
whatever that's gonna look like.

Steve: the dark fiber.

I'm not sure exactly if it's completely
necessary It definitely for now.

Yes, but it's Experiments potentially
without but sorry Maria No, I'm thinking

Maria: I was just gonna say
at the end of the day, they're

engineering problems, right?

They've especially I think in
quantum networking, we're taking it

away from the physicists a little
bit and saying, okay, this is the

system that we're working with.

These are the rules.

These are the different
leads we can follow.

Let's try everything and see what works.

So at least.

From my time in quantum networking, maybe
it was just a symptom of the people I

was working with who were engineers.

It I saw it much more as an
engineering problem, right?

We've got these roles to play
with these problems to fix.

Let's just start building
stuff and start breaking stuff.

And that's also why I think
I found it really fun.

Cause it wasn't that focused
on necessarily the mathematical

theoretical side of things.

Although that was obviously a really
important bit of it, but also on the

let's just try different ventures and
see what we can do with these systems

from there and see what, as an, with
an engineering mindset, what type of

problems we can solve within which
timelines rather than just pondering

and looking at the whiteboard.

Dan: I think that time of the whiteboard
is well spent as long as you're drawing

Maria: absolutely.

It's necessary.

I have a whiteboard in
my back room right now.

I love whiteboards.

but I think that there is a necessity
to eventually leave the whiteboard and

just try things, simulate things,
try things in a testbed and then come

back and circle back because if we
don't do that, we don't progress.

Dan: Yeah.

How does somebody do that if they want to?

Is it all academia
orientated, do you think?

Or are you mentioned hackathons, they
I imagine most cases they're software

orientated or simulator orientated,
but are there hardware platforms

that are available for people to,
to test or try or to work with it?

I imagine not, right?

Maria: the heartbreaking news
here is that probably not.

I'm sure there's things that
I'm sure there's like little

projects that you can do.

But the reality is, if you want to
work this at a high level on a research

level, in a paid role, you're gonna
have to eat the academia side of things.

If you like it or not,
that's gonna be part of it.

Now there is ways to start working on
these types of projects and maybe as a way

to learn if you actually want to do this.

'cause obviously academia
is a lot of investment.

You are investing time, you're
investing maybe the loss of

other opportunities, right?

Because of the time that
you're spending there.

Because of the Investment that
you're putting in terms of effort.

So there's definitely, again, circling
back to like open source, there's projects

out there that you can contribute in that
you will need to learn a lot before you

actually can fix an issue that they have.

So maybe that's a good.

place to start and just test out if
this is the type of problem, the type

of field that you want to work in.

But the reality is, if you want to
make this into a career right now, and

you want to work in the research side
of things, there are opportunities

outside of research side of things.

The role I'm doing right now, it doesn't
require me to have the academic level of a

professor simply because I'm working with
like education, academia, and partners.

And arguably, it's more useful
for me to not have the very in

depth view because I need to be
able to teach it to other people.

I need to be able to collaborate
with different types of people.

But if you want to do the research, you're
gonna need to pass through the academic

little stamp, which is sad, but...

Dan: No, it's the framework
that's there, right?

So Maria, I think I'd like to talk about
like the overall quantum ecosystem.

I'd like to talk about what's
coming over the horizon.

I hear a lot about sensing and
imaging and things but I know nothing

about that at this point in time.

Have you come across
that in your research?

And where do you think that's going to be?

Maria: I have a really fun metric to
know what's coming out first, and I think

it's not the metric that most people use.

My metric is what PhDs are coming out.

So obviously, I'm currently in
that scene in which I know I'm

graduating in this not this summer,
but next summer, so in a few months.

And I'm deciding, do I want to
spend like another year in industry?

Do I want to try out something new?

Or do I want to just go
down academia, right?

And, that means that I'm looking out
for PhDs and opportunities out there,

and especially for funded ones, right?

And a very fun way of knowing what's
coming up soon is to just open that,

like open FindMyPhD, put in the word
quantum, and see how many Funded

opportunities show up for every
single type of quantum technology.

So I'm going to tell you, sensing and
imaging, that's pretty big right now.

Cause there's so many opportunities,
even within a same university.

There's outright people who are
building out groups from scratch.

I think two days ago, I saw a university,
can't remember which university it was.

I think it was in the UK.

It was five PhD
opportunities coming out for.

Quantum imaging all within
the same University.

I would start.

Oh, my God.

That's interesting.

That's a

pretty big like little boom.

Yes, exactly.

So I think because of how the
development of technologies goes, right?

And there's a point in which
your technology becomes viable

in terms of being useful and
not just being a money drain.

We, anybody who has worked with quantum
computers knows that quantum computers

are currently a money drain and are
going to be for a few more years, right?

And that's why really the big players are
the only ones that can properly play the

game because you need to have IBM type of
budgets to do IBM type of research, right?

Or you need to be in an
academic institution.

But with other stuff, with quantum
sensing, with quantum imaging, we're

starting to see not necessarily smaller
groups, but like smaller teams from maybe

hospitals or maybe other types of research
institutions who are taking it in.

And we're starting to see a big
boom of that being reflected into

the necessity in academia, right?

So I, without having any proper
understanding of quantum imaging and

quantum sensing yet, because I've
never worked with it, I've never

touched it, the closest I've been to
it has been understanding how we could

use quantum networks with quantum
sensors, which is not, nothing similar

to actually working in the field.

I can tell you already that's
coming, that's probably going to be

one of the things that's coming out
soon by my beautiful PhD metric.

If we...

pass that quantum sensing and
quantum imaging side of things.

I think the next thing that's
actually really popular right now

in academia is quantum algorithms.

Simply because we've got these computers,
they're not perfect, they're really noisy,

they're not that useful, but we can start.

pushing stuff into them.

And that's interesting because we can
start like testing out ideas, right?

And you need to be able to create people
who understand quantum mechanics and

quantum gates to the point where they
can actually transform your little

physical idea into a code, right?

So that's another big thing that's
coming in terms interesting.

thing.

Hardware side of things.

Optics people have always been there.

They will always be there.

They will take whatever
side and role they want in

Dan: As long as you need light.

Yeah.

Maria: Exactly.

Optics opportunities are always there.

They come with different types of wording.

They're not always necessarily quantum
tech in the way we think about it.

I've talked with a lot of people who
are doing PhDs and they went into optics

thinking they were going to like, work
with qubits directly and they realized

that's not what they were doing.

They were doing like this type
of different testing that I don't

necessarily understand, but obviously
that side of hardware is that I'm

starting to see more and more.

alternative qubits
positions being open to.

So people who are researching types
of qubits or trying to improve

the fidelity or the quality of
certain qubits that already exist.

So that's already out there too.

And then in the big quantum tech lab.

So you have labs that are dedicated
certain technologies, right?

If you're looking at a lab that's
dedicated within an institution to

quantum network, those opportunities
are going to come out, right?

And in quantum networking, what
I'm seeing is more hardware

side of things and software.

Software exists, but it's
mostly hardware work.

With different types of like connections.

And I think that's pretty much what I've
been seeing around just from the my stage

of the career side of things, right?

It's quantum imaging, quantum sensing.

That's It's pretty popular right
now for whatever reason that I do

not understand, but I'm sure anybody
who goes in will figure it out.

Then there's the quantum
software side of things.

It's accessible, it's open to
everybody, and it may help us

solve problems for the future.

And also it's playing, it will play
a really important role, which is the

training the people who are going to be
able to work with these machines later on.

And then quantum hardware, you've
got your classical ideas that.

technology.

Dan: Yeah, the sensing
one really interests me.

We've heard in the press about quantum
sensors used for highly advanced GPS

without the need for a satellite system.

And I'm, imagining that some
kind of really smart accelerometer

that's working at the atomic level.

And I guess when it comes to.

All of the other types of measurements we
take in our everyday lives in our machines

and systems like temperature, magnetic
field, rotation things like that's really

taking all of those to the next level.

So I guess it's a big market and for
there to be that amount of investment

in one university, it's just one corner
case, but, it's for you to see at the

top of your list or your metric, then
I guess that's, that's a sign perhaps

that there is a technology is closer
to being ready for commercialization.

I'm guessing, do you think that would
be a driver for a dean in a university

or a professor that's looking to
develop some new technologies?

Maria: I think so, because at
the end of the day academia

as industry is run by budgets.

And the reality is you might have
the best idea in the world, but

you need to find the budget and the
support to actually research it.

And quantum sensing and quantum imaging
bring in different, very interesting

type of investors from the medical
field or from the military field.

And both those types of investors.

So I think that just by that
metric, it does make sense.

It also makes sense because it's it's
a technology that is based on quantum

mechanics, but it doesn't necessarily
come with the big hurdles that creating

a quantum network or quantum computer
might bring in terms of just What

you're trying to achieve, right?

You're trying to manipulate the field
in a way in which you can sense or

image something which is not the same
as, hey, create a computer that's

much faster.

Yeah, I'm better than any other thing that
we have around and that solves my good.

The problems that we have in quantum
mechanics, or connect one qubit to

another from a hundred kilometers.

It's not the same, and maybe I'm
completely wrong about this, and maybe

I'm just seeing it with a very simple
view, which is completely possible,

but at least from my perspective, it's
not exactly the same type of complexity

in terms of what you're trying to
achieve, the aspirations, right?

And there's a lot of interest, for very
good reason from both medical side of

things and military side of things, and
that's always a big push for things.

It's a bit similar to why there
was a big, there is a lot of noise

about post quantum cryptography.

Banks know they need post quantum
cryptography and they want it now.

And that's why there's a lot of
movement in post quantum cryptography

because there is this very I'm going
to say the word supportive market

that wants to support it right now.

So it makes sense.

Anybody who maybe if we look at
computing side of things and you look

at who might want quantum computers.

Those people know that those computers
aren't coming in three years.

So even though there's insane budgets
and insane support for them, there

is a lesser need for urgency and
same thing with quantum networks.

The technology, we know it will
come because we're working on it,

but there's not this very urgent
desire from a specific group for it

to come right this second because
they need it for a certain use.

Dan: Yeah, I love the
conversations around that.

That's quantum cryptography, and
you hear different perspectives

on how urgent it is, right?

Of course, there's the whole fear,
uncertainty, and doubt that's being thrown

around about, store and decrypt later.

And actually the fact that there
aren't any quantum computers out there

that could break an algorithm yet.

Nobody can actually run Shor's
algorithm to the extent that

it needs to break RSA2048.

But yeah, it's it's a little
bit of an industry working

on fear, but that's security.

That's cyber security.

That's what it's all about.

Maria: Also, I think it comes
hand in hand with the geopolitical

climate that we're in right now.

The fear of there being evil agents
from whatever side of the reactivated

Cold War you're in, basically.

You see it, there is this...

fear, that is created and it just grows
the requirement or the desired creative

necessity for this type of security.

I think it's definitely
really interesting, especially

as an undergraduate.

I, it's definitely really interesting
seeing how much urgency there

is created on something that
we might not need right now.

I think the biggest argument that
I've seen for it, which kind of

made sense was this idea that it's.

If an evil agent had obtained certain
information, they would be able to

decrypt it once quantum computers came.

But even in that sense, I think that
the scenarios that are being built,

and maybe that's just because I haven't
worked in security are not necessarily

as urgent as we might think they are.

I think that's the beauty of
being so young in my career that

I can just say this idea and
just be like I clean my hands.

I have no idea.

I'm just here for the ride.

I'm learning.

Dan: Yeah, it's all a learning process.

Don't worry.

I'm still learning.

Come on.

You don't stop learning.

Ideally.

That's that's the best
way to be, in my opinion.

Steve: I did have one question,
it's back to the question from

before, workforce training.

I guess one thing I noticed is
there are internship opportunities.

There's a lot of possibilities
to start working in quantum.

But do you believe that it's enough?

Do you think people who want to be in
quantum have a chance to do quantum?

For example, if you come from, I
don't know, a different place where

there's no one to teach you it's hard
to know where to start, for example.

Do you think that there's enough
going on to help people, I don't

know, from potentially third world
country where they don't have access to

information as easily as we might have?

So yeah, I'm just curious what
you, what do you think about that?

Maria: Absolutely.

No, I think there's a lot of
efforts being put into it.

I think the quantum community
is conscious of this.

Because right now I'm working
with like the European and African

quantum community team in IBM, and
there's a lot of support and desire

to make quantum more accessible.

But the reality is that at least
from what I've seen, there's a

lot of privilege with having an
opportunity to work in quantum, right?

The opportunity and the path I've
taken so far has been, I was in the

right place at the right time, right?

It's not the normal path for somebody
in quantum, but even that opportunity

of being in the right place in the
right time was because back when I came

into the UK, I had the pre Brexit deal.

After Brexit, I had the post Brexit
deal, which allowed me to work in a

company in the UK, which ended up being
an American multinational company that

had the investment and the time to
let me work in the specific project

and to learn for these people who
have these amazing backgrounds, right?

And if you start like just the
knitting of that and looking from

all that, it was a scenario of
like right place and not everybody

can be in the right place, right?

I think if you go down the route
of academia it becomes much easier.

Just because there was, I think, a quote
a couple years back from one of the

head leads of the I B M quantum team
in the states in New York, in which

he said that he could probably hire
every single graduate that graduated

that year in the states of the teaching
quantum, and it still wouldn't be

enough for his workforce necessities.

But the reality is that before that
step, before being able to get there

and even with the opportunity to
actually be able to get into that side

of academia, there's a lot of privilege
and there's a lot of opportunities that

are close to certain type of people.

And that is really a shame, but it is a
symptom that we need to be conscious of.

It is a symptom, not just in quantum,
but in quite a lot of the tech world.

And I think We, as a community,
are putting an interest in

making that less of a thing.

The issue you have is that the reality
is, if you want to work in quantum

software, you need English, because
that's what, that's how you learn

Python, which is the first step.

Then you need to go into an academic
institution in which they will be

able to I teach quantum from the tech
perspective, right now in my university,

they don't work with quantum computers.

We have a great optics department, but
I'm actually choosing like my dissertation

for the end of my bachelor's next month.

And I'm 100% sure I'm going to have
no chance of doing anything related to

quantum gates, to quantum networking in
the non hardware side of things, or in

the non optics related side of things.

No opportunity to do like
theoretical quantum mechanics, like

that's just not going to happen.

And, I'm still working
in this field, right?

I'm still like having all these doors
open for me that I've worked for, but

that I've also had the chance to be in
and if that's just what happens to me

in my small scale level, I don't want
to even think about the just loss of

people that were living just because
of the opportunities that don't exist.

I think we'll make it work.

I think it'll get better.

It's also just comes with the
definition of being a young field.

but yeah, no that's definitely a
really interesting thing to take

into account when you come into the
field is the fact that there is a

lot of privilege with having had
the opportunity to join in no matter

from what perspective you're coming.

And if you've had that chance and
you've had that opportunity, Use it.

You can contribute a lot.

You can have a lot of fun.

You can create a lot of things.

Use that opportunity and that interest
that you initially had into making the

world maybe a better place, hopefully.

Steve: Yeah, there's, I know
there's quite a lot of places

to go to learn these things.

Like it's all free, the quantum open
source, even just participating in the

Penny Lane Slack or the Qiskit Slack,
you can go and ask a lot of questions.

Anyone could go there and ask a
lot of questions and it's, but

still, I think it's too challenging
to just know where to start.

If you come from, Somewhere where there's
not much quantum action, and then, Oh,

I saw a book, I want to start quantum.

What to do?

What's the first step?

I think it's very challenging.

Especially if your university
doesn't have quantum.

Maria: There's also, I think,
a lot of countries are starting

to realize that is a thing.

I just came last month from the from
a hackathon that was organized by the

National Center of Quantum Networks here
in the UK, and I went in there as an

IBM Provider and what they did that they
do this yearly hackathon in which they

have providers of quantum computers.

So that might be a big multinational
like IBM who come in with their

system or even like local startups.

I don't actually think you can
define Orca as a startup anymore,

but companies who also have
their own quantum system, quantum

computers like Orca in the UK, right?

And they bring in all these providers
and they take in postgraduate students.

So that was masters and PhD level.

Anybody.

studying in a UK university can apply.

And then they take them, they
divide into these groups divided

by the skill set that they have.

And they make them work in problems
that exist in the UK as a country.

So for example, they had people from
like the NHS, which is the National

Health the National Health Service.

I don't know, I don't never remember
what the S stands for, but like the

National Health Care services here in

the UK.

And they Yeah.

Oh, great.

And they came here with problems.

They came in with problems and these
students like had to take in the

quantum systems, learn how to use
them and try to solve the problem

on within a specific timeframe.

And that was done through
the UK government funds.

And that's maybe a fun way or
an interesting way to create

workforces on an national level.

But it's definitely also comes with
the necessity to have these stripes

of innovation drives at a national
level, which doesn't happen everywhere.

So it's an interesting problem to solve.

It's also, I always think of
language as being a very big barrier.

Cause I had the opportunity to
learn a lot of languages when I

was young and I can speak English.

But I also have a lot of friends who
don't necessarily have those skills just

because of the background they came from.

And.

That is like massive, like not knowing
how to learn English immediately

closes like almost any academic
door that you could ever go through,

just because you need to read papers
and what are papers written in?

And then you've got code, right?

And you've got Python and you've got Julia
and you've got all these other languages.

You need to know what if else means.

And it's not just language,
there's other things.

There's just the opportunities
and availability of quantum

research being in your area.

But it's definitely really interesting.

I definitely don't think this is
a specific quantum problem though.

I think this is a wider issue
with research and academia.

Dan: And I think it's STEM as
well, in a broader sense, because

it's a layering of mathematics
in a language of itself, right?

That's.

First of all, you need that
strong foundation, and it's quite

advanced mathematics as well.

Matrices, vectors, and
all that kind of stuff.

And then you mentioned English, and
then you mentioned Python, and it's this

layering of all these different ways
of communicating that are necessary.

So it's hard to instill that,

Maria: yeah, you need to be able to
learn it and teach it in a way that works

for quite a lot of different people.

So basically anybody who's like
neurodivergent has different

types of learning needs might
not find the way to pass.

A specific step of the way, right?

So it's definitely really interesting.

Then there's also like the representation
and diversity side of things which is also

like an existing problem in all of them.

I think that's slowly
changing, it's slowly coming.

Back to what it should
have always been, really.

But the reality is that everybody
who works in this field at a certain

level should be conscious of it.

I think there's a lot of people who don't
quite understand why these things are a

problem, why these things are a necessity.

But hopefully as It's more and more
promoted and there's more and more

explanations why diversity is an
important thing, why accessible is

an important thing, why there should
be open source projects, maybe

that'll help just push for that.

Dan: Great, thank you.

Steve, is there anything
you want to end on?

I love putting you on the spot.

Steve: The one thing that I think is
one big variables, it's not even, it's

just a thing that even if you're the
best in the world, it always comes

down to not only that, , it's not
like you could do these things alone.

I think that's a big challenge as well.

So even if you study all the books,
learn all the maths, learn all the

languages, the opportunities also come.

From who you're connected to, and
that's a shame as well, I think, because

it's hard to find the people who are
willing to help and bring them, give

them the opportunities that they need
or, yeah, I think that's, it's just,

Maria: Yeah, no, absolutely.

If Santanu back in Cisco
hadn't said, yes, come with

me.

And then Sam back in Cisco hadn't
said, Hey, I'm going to teach you.

I'm going to mentor you on this.

And then Stefan Kraskinov like
in Google Summer Code was like,

yes, I'm going to take you in.

And if there hadn't been all these people
who said, yes, I'm going to invest my time

in teaching you something just because.

I want to not because anybody's
forcing me or because like I'm gaining

or profiting anything from this
because they're not the reality is

Stefan would have written library.

I wrote him with his eye closed in
two weeks I would have gained so

much time that voicing and explaining
to me you're doing everything

wrong Maria start again right.

but because there was so many people
who said yes, because I was the

right place to meet those people.

It's.

It's really just it reminds
you that you have worked for

what you're getting right now.

You have definitely put all the effort,
you've done all the necessary steps, but

not everybody gets these opportunities.

Not everybody meets the right
people at the right time.

I think, especially as you go up in your
career, you need to at least my mindset

is I need to give that back, right?

When my time is to be that manager and
to be that person who's being asked, by

an intern, can I work in your projects?

The goal is to be able
to say yes, come in.

I'll teach you.

I'll actually invest my time into you
because that was done to me before.

And I think creating that type
of community is really important.

And honestly, I think like open source,
the open source ecosystem is being really

good at starting to create that type of
mindset and quantum in which you need to

have an open door and you need to invite
people in, because that's the only way

we're going to grow as an ecosystem.

That's the only way you're going to
advance because you're inviting and

teaching And I definitely think there's.

There's starting to be a focus on It's
starting to happen more and more, and it

will hopefully happen more and more as
the field becomes bigger and bigger, but

we need to remind ourselves to do that.

Steve: Yeah, I completely agree.

And I still remember 10 years ago,
just getting, I don't know how long

it's been or something like 10 years.

And I could see from my own
perspective, it's changed a lot.

Like when I was, Looking for
internships, my bachelors.

There weren't a lot of
computing companies, I think.

Maybe IBM was just starting, but
yeah, now you can see the communities,

there's people willing to help.

It's not just, university
professors anymore.

It's just people around the world
who are just working on the topic.

It's nice

Dan: Steve, for a young man, for a young
man, you're already showing your age.

That's how fast the industry is

Steve: Yeah, let's see.

The

Dan: what that is.

Steve: academic weights,
they make you age faster.

Maria: Yeah.

I was actually like, really excited when I
saw the role I'm in at the moment because

if you look at internships, the quantum
internships, it's all PhD requirement.

Maybe if you're lucky, you'll
see a master's requirement.

But it's always a PhD requirement.

So like, when I saw the role I'm
doing right now, and it said Students

undergraduates will be considered.

I was like, Oh my God.

And I just ran I just immediately
on the spot, like uploaded the CV,

wrote the cover letter, followed
the manager that was putting it out.

Like it was just a little like.

Oh my god, this has appeared.

This exists.

There is a job that doesn't
require me to be doing a PhD.

Because also, sometimes it's
just oh, you need a PhD and

to be finishing this summer.

I'm just like, okay, I can't
wait five years for that.

But yeah, no it's definitely
changing and growing.

So it's a good thing, hopefully.

Oh,

Steve: I think it's just
a sign of the times.

It's just a very risky field.

Companies are putting money
and they want something back.

And if you have to spend most of
the training just to bring them up

to speed, it's, I can see, I can
understand why, but it's unfortunate,

but that's what money does.

It's not about

Maria: Yeah, no, especially with

Steve: generosity.

Maria: startups, it's understandable.

There is, you need to put
something out to be able to

continue surviving as a company.

And for that, you can't really be
spending your time training people, which

is a shame, but it's, it is also true.

Steve: Yeah.

Dan: Great.

I think we're going to wrap it up.

Maria, thank you so much for joining us.

We covered so much ground across the
whole industry, and I got exactly what

I wanted, which was your perspective
as an undergraduate with all these

doors opening in front of you.

And it's fascinating to hear that
you're having a great time at IBM.

Just to close it off, is there anything
you'd like to advertise or say about

what you're doing at IBM that it
would be useful for the listeners?

And then perhaps we can
just, we can finish it there.

Maria: Yeah, sure.

I think.

Honestly, if I had to talk about IBM
for quantum or anything, I'm just

gonna say it's a great starting point.

If you want to try out quantum,
no matter where you are in your

career, the easiest way to do
that is open the Qiskit textbook.

Because it's got an associated open source
project, it's got a really big community,

there is a Slack channel, there's a
Discord channel, there's projects that

keep happening all the time, there's
little badges that it'll give you.

So it's a really good starting
point as a community to start in.

And that's what I'm working in.

And they're like the community, maybe
I'm working at a national level,

but it exists on a global level.

It's a great community to join.

And from that, you can continue your
journey because they have a lot of

recommendations, like if you go through
Qiskit textbook, it'll give you your

lesson and at the end of it, it'll
have associated resources, and then

maybe I'll recommend you three books.

And if you click on those
books and you read those books,

you'll learn more and more.

And it has a lot of use case software.

So you can look up like the Qiskit
version of the traveling salesman

problem and learn how to solve that
problem with a quantum system from the

same textbook that you've learned your
101 on quantum information, right?

So it's a good starting place, I think.

Dan: That's great.

It is they've tried to make
it soup to nuts, I think, in

terms of education, right?

Starting from the basics, I've read a fair
bit of the textbook and I went on a summer

school and they're both really good.

And for somebody that's got the
time, they can stick to that and

end up with a point where they
can try and solve some problems.

Yeah.

Superb.

All right.

Thank you for that.

Thanks very much.

Thanks for your time.

Steve: Thanks a lot.

Dan: I'd like to take this moment to
thank you for listening to the podcast.

Quantum networking is such a broad domain
especially considering the breadth of

quantum physics and quantum computing all
as an undercurrent easily to get sucked

into So much is still in the research
realm which can make it really tough for

a curious it guy to know where to start.

So hit subscribe or follow me on your
podcast platform and I'll do my best

to bring you more prevalent topics
in the world of quantum networking.

Spread the word.

It would really help us out.