.
Dan: Welcome back to the quantum divide.

Thank you very much for tuning in.

We've got a really interesting
conversation this time round.

I'm meeting with.

Piotr Roztocki, who is the CTO
and co-founder of Ki3 Montreal.

In Canada.

We have a really good kind
of deep dive on some various

different quantum optics topics.

I learned to.

A lot speaking to Peter.

Oh, I won't spoil it, but he's a.

I'm going to just call that
a couple of the honors that

he received on his LinkedIn.

So the first Canadian to
be named a Paul Baron young

scholar by the Marconi society.

He's the.

, Vaidya Canada, graduate scholar, most
prestigious PhD scholarship in Canada.

And his startup . That's been
running for a few years now.

Ki3 Photonics was named a winner
in the SPIE startup challenge

and also given a public prize.

From IBM quantum.

. I hope you enjoy it.

All right.

Thank you, Peter, for joining us.

It's good to have you on the show.

I'm very keen to have
a chat with you today.

Let's start like I always do with your
background, your path into quantum.

Give us a bit of a background on
how you got here, why we're talking

and we'll take it from there.

Piotr: Yeah, absolutely.

My pleasure, Dan.

Very nice to be on here.

And in terms of my background to Quantum
definitely a lot less like a winding path

and more like a straight line to Montreal.

After my undergraduate studies,
I came stayed in Montreal.

I studied in the Institute National
de la Recherche Scientific.

It's a graduate only institute over here.

And it was in the.

research group of Professor Biramore
and Dottie and we have an excellent

infrastructure excellent researchers
as well, so I was very much indebted

to the ability to work with them.

And in terms of the infrastructure,
which is, very important for

doing quantum photonics and for
pursuing this type of research.

We were lucky enough to have the cutting
edge in that regard, as well as some

telecommunications infrastructure.

And in this case, this was also something
that myself and my co founder also

helped with the grants to acquire.

So also a great experience
that later taught us quite a

bit going into the startup.

And my research during the course of
my graduate studies took me all over

optics so laser, nonlinear optics.

giving me a pretty wide knowledge base,
but then ultimately my thesis was on

quantum photonics on chip and in fiber.

Dan: Very cool.

We're here to talk about Ki3, your
startup, but first of all when you were

at university doing that work Was there
a point where you thought I can see my

future being in a startup or was it not
until the end or I guess if you are,

up to your eyeballs in mathematics and
experimental photonics then perhaps not.

.
Piotr: I think it was definitely
a very different world at that

point, especially for quantum.

So there was a lot happening at
that particular point in time.

So quantum computing interest was
growing and it was growing from

academia and turning into startups
and turning into also funded.

research lines inside of major
companies around the world.

I think the thing I did find during
my graduate studies was that there

was already I could perceive this
kind of weakness in the supply chain.

You'd want to have something inside of
a laboratory, but sometimes it wasn't

even commercially available, or if it
was it would take significant delays.

It would be very difficult to
get and maybe not as robust.

In that particular regard, later on,
the QED C would come out with a metric

that for a five year quantum research
project three years were spent sourcing

equipment, one year was spent integrating
the equipment, and only one year was

spent on actually collecting the data,
and I think that this is something that

we knew on the graduate side quite a bit.

But yeah I, I guess, relatively
early on, I knew I wanted to

be in something quite applied.

I didn't know whether that would
be in a more commercial like a big

industry like telecommunications.

But as these opportunities and
weaknesses in the supply chain kind

of came about, it became clear to me
that a startup is a great opportunity.

Dan: Why don't you go on to that?

I would like to ask you about
the supply chain now, but maybe

we'll come onto that later.

Yeah.

Tell us about Ki3.

What's the story, who are you?

What have you developed?

What are you developing?

Piotr: Yeah, so we, we incorporated quite
a while ago in 2015 as an optics company.

And at that point to be honest, we
weren't focusing on quantum photonics.

We were trying to get an understanding
as to what could we produce?

What could we do that would
be useful in general to the.

To the broader community and also because
we've been in it for quite a bit of time

that's also when we started learning about
entrepreneurship and that is something

that especially if you don't have a
background in it or you have a a physics

background, it takes quite a bit of time.

So this was at that point in parallel
with my studies and my research.

It wasn't full time.

But yeah, we were lucky at that point to.

Be part of several different business
incubators and accelerators for startups.

So those included the creative
destruction labs over in Toronto.

Then later on, sound tech,
duality and an asset.

And we, when I say we, I mean myself
and my co founder and CEO, Yoann Jestin.

We traversed this learning curve and
tried to learn as much as possible

about how to be entrepreneurs, how to
build a business that has a sound model.

And we've been very proud since that
point in time, especially since we

really pivoted towards quantum around
2020 with CDL and and with also our IP

portfolio to have grown organically.

So only using non dilutive funding and to
have grown a fantastic world class team

of people that I enjoy seeing every day.

And today we're at the point where
we're raising our seed round.

So it's been quite a journey.

Dan: Yeah, it's quite a long
journey from inception to

seed that's pretty impressive.

So the products that you sell now maybe
if you could give us an overview, I

believe there's a, an entanglement source.

So keen to hear a bit about that.

What makes it unique?

And maybe if you could cover.

Something around your IP as well.

Again, that sort of towards
the uniqueness, right?

What is it that you're
bringing to the market?

Cause I think it's becoming quite a
packed market in, I may be wrong, but

I just, I'm aware of a few different
suppliers of entanglement sources.

Maybe they're not all the same
and maybe that's not the case

at all, but yeah, keen to hear

Piotr: Yeah, sure.

So with Ki3 and our products, we're
focusing on quantum networking

over standard fiber infrastructure.

So that's really, it's very important
to us that when a client wants to deploy

an entangled source, when we want to
deploy quantum networking use cases

down the line that they don't need to.

Install their own specialty fiber that
they don't need to work around the

infrastructure that is already in place.

So we're trying to adapt towards the
existing infrastructure and also to make

use of very mature technologies leveraging
fiber and leveraging integrated platforms.

That's actually where the name
of the company comes from.

We're leveraging CHI 3 materials.

Materials that exhibit what's known
as a Ki3 optical non linearity.

Towards that end, we hope to
build products that support

the quantum supply chain.

And these include sources of
entangled photons, as you mentioned,

across the telecom spectra.

This includes quantum state
analyzers for time encoded photons,

stabilization solutions, and the
software that supports these different

devices and their reconfigurability.

On the topic of entangled photons yeah,
there, there's thankfully the market is

becoming more and more it's gone from
emerging market over to more and more

startups being interested in the space,
building their own sources, whether

they're built on bulk photonic crystals
were built on also gases in some case.

In our particular case, again, we
believe in integrated photonics

and the mass producibility the
reproducibility and the quality

control processes that come with that.

So that's a differentiator.

Dan: Okay.

So it's it's using nonlinear.

Yeah.

Spontaneous photon
emission, pairs of photons?

Piotr: Yeah, so you're probably
referencing SPDC, which is

spontaneous parametric downconversion.

So that's typically what's made use of
inside of bulk crystals because they

have that kind of crystal structure.

Inside of Ki3 materials, we have
access to a different type of process

known as spontaneous forward mixing.

And we leverage that towards the
emission of entangled photons.

And the way that we think
about it and that, maybe.

is also conducive to, to to
your listeners is to think

about this as a quantum rainbow.

This is photons that are being
emitted over the spectrum.

We have a photon that is spanning
several different wavelengths at the

same time, so several different colors.

And then that's something that's
very useful for people working

with standard telecommunications
infrastructure because they can

take the color filters that they're
used to using in telecommunications.

Use exactly the same infrastructure
and just split up our rainbow into

different channels that they can then
branch off and route to different users.

So that's the let's say
the the overlay of it.

But I think that spectrum became very
important in classical telecommunications.

And we believe that's also going
to be the case for quantum.

The bandwidth and these considerations are
going to be very important for routing.

And moreover in our particular case we
have options with the types of degrees of

freedom that we're making use of for our
quantum information and for its encoding.

So in our particular case we're very
big fans of time and frequency and

use micro cavities from integrated
photonics to generate these signals.

Dan: Great.

Yeah, let's come on to some of that.

Let me just take a step back to.

The supply chain, as I mentioned earlier
on, do you feel that it's different

to how it was when you started?

And have you made the impact
that you wanted to, or you

think that it was necessary?

Piotr: We're starting, so I'm very
excited to go to work to every day.

If we uh, we've done quite a bit and we're
very happy of our progress, but there's so

much left to do in, in quantum networking.

So many, huge problems on both industrial
and academic level to, to solve.

So it's still very, very exciting.

And the ecosystem is completely different.

But I would say that's an excellent thing.

I think that, the Real turning
point for us was when we saw big

companies like Amazon and Cisco also
investing into quantum networking.

And this no longer being something that
just happens inside of a few laboratories

throughout the world, or maybe one
or two startups throughout the world,

but also being pursued by companies.

By large corporations, that is
huge in terms of market validation.

I think that if we are the only
ones working on this problem on

quantum networking and, globally,
I think that would be that, that

wouldn't be a very good thing.

It would probably mean that
we're doing something wrong.

Dan: I'd imagine that
would be a bit daunting.

so, So you've got this
unique form of entanglement.

Generation, how does
it sit in the network?

I'm assuming you're sending traffic to
a left and a right link, and there's got

to be some kind of quantum node, maybe
with a qubit on the other end, which is

which it's interacting with to then use
the entanglement that's been generated.

is that your deployment model?

And if so, Yeah, there's some
scenarios that you can talk about

in terms of distance and connections
and wavelengths and things that

would be interesting to hear.

Piotr: Yeah.

So I think there's a lot that we
can cover on this particular matter.

So first off, why time?

Why frequency?

Why are these the degrees of
freedom that are of interest?

Okay, maybe let's take
a couple of steps back.

In physics, we have this
particle known as a photon.

This is a particle of light.

And in the same way that These kinds of
particles have a specific position where

they currently are specific momentum.

There, there's other degrees of freedom
and ultimately, these are things that

we can use as properties of a photon
in order to encode information in them.

So for example, we can have
the polarization of a photon,

which basically refers to the
alignment of the electromagnetic

field that it's comprised of.

We can think about the color of
the photon, so how fast is that

electromagnetic field fluctuating,
and then we also have some degrees of

freedom related, for example, to time,
which is where is the photon right now?

Is it arriving right now?

Is it arriving in a couple nanoseconds?

Is it arriving a little bit after that?

When we look at these degrees of freedom
One thing that we really care about,

especially trying to stick to standard
fiber infrastructure, is the robustness

of that degree of freedom to propagation.

So what are the chances that as we
propagate through the fiber channel

something goes wrong in terms of
noise or something goes wrong in terms

of the channel changing over time
in that degree of freedom as well.

For example, with polarization
what can happen is as the channel

changes, or the temperature changes
the stress inside of the optical

fiber gets a little bit modified and
polarization needs to be compensated.

And there's a lot of work being done
throughout the world right now to

compensate polarization in real time,
and that's uh, That's fantastic.

And I think that with optical
frequency, the color of a photon

is very unlikely to change.

So it's a very robust degree of freedom.

That's one thing and the other degree
of freedom time, which we are also

very big fans of optical channels
don't tend to switch link fast enough

in order to really disturb encoding.

So that's the reasoning
for for using these.

Going back to your question
with respect to routing a lot of

infrastructure in place for routing
signals based on optical frequency.

So the technology, which is known
as de multiplexing or multiplexing

technologies or dense wavelength
division multiplexing technology.

There's a lot of different filters,
reconfigurable filters even

that are in place and networks
throughout the world that, that

can handle these kinds of signals.

Also, that technology is also becoming
more and more mature in the sense that

it's creating less and less noise for
quantum photonic signals, which we're

also very excited so we can bring in
that technology more and more into the

fray for quantum photonic networks.

So that's the way in which we would
be routing based on frequency.

And I think that there's, still a lot of
open questions and I think companies such

as Cisco are pursuing these relating to.

How does a packet look like
for quantum information?

How do we route these making use of both
classical and and quantum information?

And how can routers that
are quantum ready be built?

But this is, yeah, this is
part of all those challenging

questions that we're looking into.

On top of course, how do we co
propagate classical and quantum

signals at the same time?

In optical fiber, because if you
think about it we're sending off one

photon, a couple of photons at a time.

And then somewhere else on that same
fiber at a different color somebody is

trying to send, a Netflix signal that's
corresponding to milliwatts of power.

Many orders of magnitude more photons.

How do we separate these?

How do we keep these clean
with minimal crosstalk?

So this is some of the challenges
that we're looking into, and I

think a lot of companies are.

Dan: Yeah, that's cool.

I want to explore that a bit.

But first of all the encoding of.

Quantum state in the frequency and
time bins is fascinating to me.

Time, it's how early or how late is the
photon and it can be essentially in then

in the superposition of those two states.

And the same with frequency, but, and,
I know you're humoring me a little bit

with with the quantum rainbow comment,
but of course we're talking about very.

Narrow channels of spectrum, right?

Most of it's in the
infrared kind of domain.

Is that right?

Piotr: Depressingly so, yes.

It's not a very colorful
rainbow for the naked eye.

It's not a lot of blues there.

It's shades of infrared.

That's correct.

And yeah, encoding in these degrees
of freedom, as you mentioned is

very interesting and sometimes
a little bit counterintuitive.

If you're used to the block sphere 1
on perpendicular bases this requires a

little bit of a stretch of the imagination
to think about the fact that yeah, the

photon is red and blue at the same time.

So it's 0 for red, 1 for blue,
and you can always expand that

also to more simultaneously.

It's red, blue, and green at the same
time, and all of a sudden you have 0,

And you've successfully scaled this
quantum information into a qudit.

So that's something that's also possible.

And yes, going back to what you mentioned
with the narrow channels that is the case.

And in our specific case, because
we're generating these from micro

cavities, and these are effectively,
let's see, how would you imagine this?

You have, let's say a rainbow,
but it's very discrete colors.

It's a very specific shade of,
let's say, infrared next to another

very specific shade of infrared.

Very narrow line widths because
these correspond in our generation to

actually resonances of our microcavity.

And in this particular case this is
something that's fantastic because these

line widths, so how narrow these photons
are is on the order of hundreds of

megahertz, which in turn is compatible.

With quantum memories and the like.

So this is also another way to potentially
scale this process and the propagation.

Dan: Yeah, a thought on that.

So talking about classical
networking, obviously with WDM

you've got the different, you've
got the coarse and the dense mode.

And the dense mode uses, is it C band?

There's 100 GHz DWDM C band.

So does, do these 100 MHz channels
slot nicely into, one or two DWDM,

uh, channels?

Or, yeah?

Piotr: that's absolutely right.

So that's one of the benefits
like benefits of making use

of integrated photonics.

Yeah, so micro cavities
versus larger cavities.

Microcavities generate channels
that are spaced on the order of

tens or hundreds of gigahertz.

So that's exactly the spacing range that
corresponds to, for example, the filters

that you're mentioning, or to even electro
optics, so modulators So if you wanted

to process these photons later on with
electro optics this is also possible.

If you used a larger cavity than
integrated optics, So for example,

a fiber cavity that, that is on the
order of megahertz spacing and they're

separating these channels would be
very expensive in terms of filters.

So that's definitely a
benefit of our platform.

Dan: Okay, I've got to pick you up
on a couple of terms of reference

earlier on, it's just down to the
clash of industries, maybe And also

the big confusion in the traditional
IT world around switching and routing.

In the classical IT domain
switching is a layer 2.

Or sometimes you get optical switching,
which is what really DWDM would be.

And routing is more a layer
3, it's kind of IP layer.

And you're using the term routing, but
I think what you mean here is basically

separating the traffic in some way.

And that's where you get this kind of
gray area with switching and routing

in traditional IT world, because you
get devices that do both at the same

time or from interface to interface.

So it gets a bit confusing, but in
this case, it's really just path

selection based on frequency, right?

Piotr: So yes, it's path selection
based on frequency, but going back

to your point about the other levels
of the network stack that's also

relevant because ultimately quantum
networking wants very much to become

compatible with the TCP IP stack.

So there's a lot of very, important
questions especially for packet

switching and for the, these higher
level functionalities as to how can

that be even possible if measuring
a photon destroys the photon.

So that's where some of these ideas, like
for example, encoding header and footer

information in the classical domain and
then the quantum signal passes unharmed

effectively goes through and yeah, this
is a big question and I'm excited to

see the progress in the next generation
of routers and switches actually.

Dan: Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, just to confuse you things a
little bit further, Cisco have a product

called routed optical networking but
you can go and have a look at that.

That's A solution that collapses the
the kind of transport and IP layers.

But yeah, I think this is much
higher, they're a much higher level

up the stack than you would be
down at the optical layer, purely.

And when it comes to obviously
it's not a quantum product,

it's not quantum orientated.

Piotr: Not yet.

Dan: Yeah, not yet indeed.

, so let me ask about the An end to end
system, it's kind of view, so just kind

of zoom out a little bit, where you
have entanglement sources, you need

some devices at the edge which are
consuming the entanglement and using it.

Now, that can be emulated quantum
computers with small number of ions

which are there for proof of concept.

There are other ways, you can
interact with these photons using

a vacancy or um, a whole bunch of
other things, or just measure it as

your kind of approach, is that what
your signal processing unit does?

Okay.

Piotr: unit performs a state
projection but ultimately, yes this

almost directly leads over to a
detector and to, to measurement.

But going back to, I guess, the the wider
place of quantum networking, I think that

it's fair to say that it's the the glue
of the quantum ecosystem in the sense

that, Both sensing and computing are not
going to be able to escape networking in

some kind of capacity if it's chip to chip
interfaces, if it's on the metropolitan

or larger level, but sensors will be
integrated, they will be connected

and yeah, different processors or
processing units will also be connected.

So yeah, that's where I think
you've had a few episodes also

on the concept of transduction.

It can be a little bit
more straightforward or

it can be very hard to do.

So there are many efforts, for example,
in photonic quantum computing, which maybe

are a little bit more straightforward
for the use of interconnects

and for getting photons across.

But for others, you'd
require transduction.

And yeah, there's a place
for all these technologies.

Dan: Yeah there's so many different,
options on the table right now.

And when you've, of course, you've
got the transduction for the different

computing modalities or whatever
state you're holding your qubit in,

but at the same time, you've then got
how you encode it and how you encode

the entanglement across the network.

So in your case here, we've got different
types of encoding especially if you're

using frequency and time at the same time.

And so that means that the end
station whatever that might be.

Needs to be built in such a way
that it can leverage the great

benefits that frequency and time
bin encoding are giving you, right?

Piotr: Right, but those are also benefits
that are already in place for quite

a few classical telecommunications
infrastructures already.

Leveraging frequency is pretty
straightforward, and I think that

one of our focuses as well with
this, as I mentioned, rainbow of

channels is that we can think of
Also multi user quantum networking.

So being able to scale up, away
from just the end to end aspect that

we were discussing and think about
how are we going to connect several

users simultaneously by sending
different pairs of entangled channels.

How do we distribute that?

How do we reconfigure that and have
software defined quantum networking?

So yeah making this more and more aligned
with leveraging leveraging those tools.

Dan: Nice.

And you mentioned mixing photons,
individual photons with Netflix

traffic, I guess in this case, it
could be any kind of traffic of high

volume, high power, more importantly.

What are the kind of barriers that
are in the way of development of that?

I imagine they're two very very
different in terms of technologies, in

terms of encoding, power sensitivity.

And do you think that's, that's
ever going to become a reality?

Maybe it's too early to say,
but that's why I'm asking about

the barriers at this point.

Piotr: I think that we really need
to aim to make that a reality.

I think that if you speak with
telecommunications vendors and you

say, I want to use these particular
fibers for quantum networking and

use that as a service, for example.

And as a particular use case,
let's say that they're exchanging

keys or something of a sort.

And they're like, okay, no problem.

And then you tell them, but by the
way, I can't have any other traffic

on this fiber simultaneously.

I think that there's some very quick
math that the vendor does at that

particular time, which is what is
the value of the use case that you're

suggesting versus the value of what
I'm losing distributing classical

telecommunication signals between users.

And how do I so how do we navigate that?

And of course, this is an emerging market.

We're still figuring these
questions out in terms of business

model, in terms of proposition.

Maybe this isn't something that
we'll run into if we're making much

more limited in local networks.

But if we are integrating into data
centers, if we're integrating into

classical vendor infrastructure.

At that point we need to have a very
good answer, either in terms of the

value of the use case, either meet
them somewhere in the middle and allow

a few classical channels, or have
full integration and co propagation

of quantum and classical signals.

Now is that difficult?

I think that it's a
very difficult problem.

So from a technical aspect, There
are actually bounds in terms of noise

that can co propagate at the same
time with a quantum channel to where

that channel is lost effectively.

The problem is that as high power
signals propagate via optical fiber,

they are themselves generating
photons and other spectral bands.

to the point where a big industry
and research in telecommunications

is about reducing crosstalk between
classical telecommunications

bands and making up for that.

So if that's an issue, what about,
a band where you know let's say

a femtowatt can kill your signal.

So yes I, when I say that This
target of figuring out copropagation

of these signals is important.

I really mean that.

And it might not be
something that's near term.

And I think that especially right now,
as we're figuring out what the use cases

are and their respective values, these
aren't necessarily things that I would

say should be like the deal breaker.

But ultimately figuring out how
to encode and how to de mux.

Okay.

In ways that prevent this kind of
overlap is very important, and there have

been a lot of breakthroughs in recent
years, actually, towards this end about

separating, for example, the quantum
signals from the telecommunication

signals by hundreds of nanometers of
color and that reduces the noise overlap.

So we, there's many different
directions that we're pursuing,

that the industry is pursuing.

in order to minimize this, but this
is a very important issue, I think.

Dan: Yeah.

It interests me a lot.

This particular.

My gut feeling is it's going
to, because a lot of the quantum

networks are going to be small data
center scale, I think for a while.

And when I say small, that's, up
to maybe two kilometers maximum,

mostly much shorter than that.

It's not too expensive to run a bunch of
extra fibers for some quantum computers.

Inside a data center or a
campus of data center buildings.

But yeah, long term it makes complete
sense, for the economies of scale

to come down and for the cost of
infrastructure for the for the service

provider, as you described, absolutely.

It feels like the intersection
between, when that becomes

financially sensible against.

When it becomes possible, when it, when
the technology advances enough that

I think it has to advance a hell of
a lot for that to work in a reliable

way, because I think that's the other
thing about, once you put computers in

a data center, , service assurance is.

Probably more important to collapsing
onto individual fibers, right?

Ensuring that the user is getting
the the rate and the performance

in a reliable, repeatable way.

And there are layers and layers of
governance and management, which are

implemented around these things to
ensure that the infrastructure that's

implemented does what it's meant to.

And yeah, that, that kind of stuff
when it comes to operational things.

Always tends to bubble to the top.

And if the choice is a few extra
thousand for a few extra fibers,

it's it's a drop in the ocean.

Maybe if there's a large infrastructure
there, but that's just my opinion.

Piotr: I think we've seen historically
no network classical otherwise as

robust against a well placed shovel.

Dan: Indeed and reliability.

Yeah.

Number one.

Piotr: that's why reconfigurability
and the software defined networks

are also very important, I think.

Um, so in general, that we have
ways to If a link goes down if

exactly the same project problems
that are facing classical that we

don't rely on one fiber necessarily.

We have backups that we have ways
to redefine these things on the fly.

And that's where the software comes in.

Dan: Yeah, absolutely, multiple
layers of it probably, both physical

protection in the network using.

Rings and so on.

As well as the software layers
further up, which are looking at the

performance and making decisions.

Hell yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Talking about software,
what about your products?

Have you got you must have some software
layers in your products to perhaps some

controllers for the integrated circuits
or again, that's my naive question,

but yeah, walk me through those.

That'd be good.

Piotr: So our software spans
like the embedded control, the

control of the individual nodes.

As well to, to the network control
and making sure that we can

monitor and look at these things.

So it's currently still a work in
progress as to orchestrating everything.

It's a complex problem but it's
something that we're very excited about.

Dan: So this is the software that
runs inside your entanglement

sources, your processing units.

But then do you also have some kind
of centralized control or software

that manages scalability if there's
multiple systems, that type of thing?

Piotr: Yeah that's right, so that's
where, monitoring and everything comes

it's very important that we are able to
assess the individual devices and also

reconfigure them as required that's
something that I think there's a lot

of also other companies working on
some companies that are just dedicated

on software for quantum networking
and we're doing an excellent job.

And we're taking our own stab at it
with making sure that we can monitor our

hardware as well as support the ecosystem.

Cause I think the other point that
maybe I'd like to mention, which

is a little bit of an aside is
interoperability and standards.

That's something where

Dan: It always comes up.

Piotr: always does.

Yeah so ultimately it's, it's
important that no one company can

do every single component alone.

Just quantum networking in general
is this multifaceted nut to crack.

So that's where, we've also been involved
in some of the efforts to come up with

standards to make sure that We can have
also hardware that's compatible with other

companies and other networks throughout.

And that's where also, there's so many
testbeds globally now, which is very

exciting to see where different companies
can come try their hardware out and

make sure that it's playing nicely.

Dan: Yeah, there are standards
needed at all different levels.

Thinking about where
your products fit, right?

There's the, essentially
the telemetry that.

comes out of the box and the
data sources of those there's

the management layer, right?

There's a whole bunch of good stuff in the
traditional IT world that can be borrowed,

I think where you can define a YANG
model or something, which reads a whole

bunch of things from an operating system.

And in fact, yeah that's the question.

When it comes to the entanglement
sources, I'm intrigued to

know what type of telemetry is
important to a management system.

I guess you have control loops internally
within the system for it to adjust

to external environmental things or
maybe changes in the signal and so on.

But when it comes to monitoring that
system what's interesting to a, to an

end user, ultimately, is it the right
and some measure of quality, I guess.

Piotr: yeah, so the
rate is very important.

I think the there's a signal in
there called the pump, which is

the signal that excites effectively
the photons that are then emitted.

So the power of that signal
this pump signal is pulsed.

Then what that also means is
that it has a particular phase

and a particular frequency.

So it's effectively a clock.

So at that point in time, clock
distribution and clock synchronization

across the network is very important.

So it's the the mixture of
all these different things.

Dan: What kind of synchronization
do you need between two endpoints?

is it something that can only be
handled with a Directly connected

coax across the lab or are you looking
at time protocols and things yet?

Piotr: Depends entirely on
what you're trying to do.

So I think you, you've had
this conversation also with,

I think, Poolad from Icarus.

And yeah the question is
what you're attempting.

So I think there's the standard time
protocols that you were mentioning

that you can already implement.

These can be Ethernet based and you can
have clock synchronization with those.

And I think that's a great starting point.

But besides that, especially for very
short photons so very short by the way,

meaning sub nanosecond, so picosecond
or hundreds of picosecond levels at

that point you need to start thinking
about timescales that are not as

accessible with standard ethernet based
time protocols and need to go towards

yeah, more, more intense solutions.

And I think that there's already
a few that are open source,

like for example white rabbitt.

But other than that, I think that this
is where lot of efforts in stabilizing

the network can be important.

But again, it all depends on
what you're trying to do, right?

So if you're just propagating one way
the signal and you don't necessarily

care up to the picosecond as to when
it gets there then I think that's okay.

If you want to, for example, have two
different signals from Very separated

stations go from their sources and collide
at one node And I mean collide in the

exact same time bin Because you want to
do a measurement on their interference.

Then that point you require
Picoseconds level stabilization and

synchronization and that's not trivial

Dan: Yeah, that's intense.

And with timing, obviously it's not
just the accuracy, it's also the jitter

and how it changes across the network.

Yeah, it's fascinating stuff
on where that's going to go.

Okay.

Okay, that's a brilliant conversation.

Thanks for going into the details there.

Let's let's move on to a few
other things that I like to ask.

Are there any papers that you've
worked on you'd like to highlight?

I know you mentioned the work that
you've done through your PhD but was

there any particular papers that you
could call out that you'd like, to note?

I mean, If there aren't any
recently, then that's perfectly fine,

Piotr: if you're interested
in learning a little bit more

about our micro cavity platform.

There's our 2016 science paper where
we show effectively a frequency

cone, so a multi channel source of
entangled photons for a first time

and there we have both the frequency
and the time encoding so that could

be a very good starting point for
learning a little bit about what we do.

And besides that, there's groups
throughout the world, both academic

and industrial, that are doing great
work, and if you're interested in a

little bit more about synchronization
and the coexistence of signals and

quantum networks, there is a paper from
optics express in 2023 that I've been

enjoying recently from the Polyakov group.

Called Synchronization and Coexistence
in Quantum Networks, where you can read

up a little bit more about the noise
levels and some of the difficulties

in synchronizing these signals.

Dan: That's great.

And super relevant to the conversation.

Thanks.

I'll go in put that in
my giant pile of papers.

I've been, I need to look at and we'll
probably never get around to, but

that one sounds interesting for sure.

So is there a, I'm sticking with the
science publications or pieces of work.

Is there anything that really influenced
you or motivated you to get involved

or remain involved at any point
or go in a particular direction?

Could be a paper, could be
a particular scientist or.

Piotr: Yeah, so I think, definitely
the forefathers of quantum physics and

quantum science can be thanked there.

I think that the EPR paper is
definitely something that anybody

working with entanglement distribution
would point to as important.

a big inspiration.

I think besides that something that I
found very inspiring in the last, let's

say, decade or so has been the papers
from startups and industry focusing on

quantum physics because that's been the
dawn of quantum physics becoming less of

a science discipline and finally a little
bit more of an engineering discipline.

So that's meant a lot to me.

And I think also on that note.

Cisco's recent paper about packets and
in quantum networking was something

that was definitely very yeah, very
informative read and something that also

I think is on its way of connecting the
classical and quantum infrastructure,

which, as I've mentioned I believe is
something very important for us to do.

Dan: Yeah, thanks for calling
out Cisco, that is, that was a

very cutting edge paper for sure.

And the technique itself is very
cutting edge and kind of unique.

So yeah, I normally ask about your
vision for the future of quantum

optics, but I think we've probably
covered quite a little bit of that.

Is there anything else you wanted to
add about, I don't know apart from

putting everything on one fiber?

, , what's the new crystal ball?

Piotr: Yeah, so I think on the
technical side, we've managed to

cover quite a bit of what I think
will be important in the next years

in terms of noise management, loss
management, software defined networks,

and and I think also synchronization.

I think that's part of my
technical crystal ball.

I think that the other part that's going
to become more and more important is

really the use cases and driving that.

So I think What we're going to see and
what I'm also hoping for with Ki3 is

that we're going to see more and more
partnerships for ourselves, for other

quantum startups in collaboration with the
sectors that we're targeting expressing

an interest in the value add that
quantum networking can have towards our

organizations and that with that process
of iteration, we're able to really show

that this is an important technology, this
is something that deserves its investment.

I would say that, that would be my answer.

Dan: Definitely.

That's often the way, isn't it?

Where are the new use cases?

Everybody's.

Everybody's waiting.

Yeah, and these things will come along.

Absolutely.

One last question, Peter, what do you do
to wind down and disconnect from science?

Piotr: I'm a big literature
buff, same with cinema.

Yeah, I think back when I was choosing my
undergrad major, it was between literary

criticism and physics effectively.

Some choices were made, I don't regret
them, but yeah, I've been catching

up on Reading, writing, and the like
and yes, old Soviet cinema as well.

What about yourself, Dan?

Dan: Hang on, Soviet
cinema, that's interesting.

Piotr: Oh, no, we're moving on.

Dan: Yeah well, it did sound like you
made some decisions, but you kept the

other passion as well, by the sounds

of it, as a hobby.

Yeah, I mean, what, what kind of genres
do you get in Soviet old Soviet cinema?

Is it

Piotr: Sure, I can leave the
listeners off of a recommendation.

Let's see.

I am a big fan of Tarkovsky, and
I would recommend, if you're a fan

of films like Annihilation that you
should check out a film called Stalker.

Dan: okay.

Piotr: has nothing to do with stalking
but it's also a very imaginative movie

Watch it in original Russian with English
subtitles that'll kill a Friday evening.

Dan: what era are you looking
at there, is that 80s, 70s,

Piotr: I believe that is 70s

But he also has a great interpretation
of Solaris, if you're a fan of sci fi.

Dan: Ah, I love that movie yeah, great.

Piotr: Are you into cinema as well, Dan?

Or what do you do to wind down?

Dan: Walking my dog is
my favourite wind down.

Luckily I get to do that
almost every morning.

I don't live too far from the sea as well.

And with him being a Labrador, he
absolutely loves getting in the sea.

So that's what I get the most pleasure
from, I think, in terms of winding down.

Thanks for asking.

Nobody's asked me before.

Piotr: No, I was curious.

Dan: Okay, cool.

Thank you, Peter.

I'm gonna wrap it up.

Thanks very much for joining me and
responding to my difficult questions and

also the stupid ones that I like to ask.

Thanks very much.

And we'll speak again.

Piotr: My pleasure.

Thank you Dan,

Dan: Cheers.

I'd like to take this moment to thank
you for listening to the podcast.

Quantum networking is such a broad domain
especially considering the breadth of

quantum physics and quantum computing all
as an undercurrent easily to get sucked

into So much is still in the research
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