Dan: Hello.

And welcome back to the next
episode of The Quantum Divide.

This week, I'm joined by
two of my fellow countrymen.

Simon and Robin from OpenQuantum.

They're bringing a new
approach to the way.

Development of systems
happen in the quantum space.

, really leaning on some
of the practices in.

The traditional or classical IT world.

this was super interesting.

And I know you'll enjoy it.

So.

Stay tuned.

Welcome both to the podcast.

Thank you very much for joining me.

Let's start with.

Your path into quantum and any
story you've got to go with it.

And it's great that there's
two of you here on the call.

So we can have the two different stories.

Who wants to go first?

Robin: I can jump in.

So my journey into quantum
is quite a long one actually.

So I actually originally did a
PhD in ion trap quantum computing.

I started that way back in like 2006.

I joined a very early group.

There was, it was an empty
lab no equipment, nothing.

I spent my first week putting up shelves.

And so, yeah, I spent, four years doing
a PhD in ion trapping a short stint

in academia and postdocs, but this is
all way before there was an industry.

So I left, didn't want to be
an academic spent some time.

Building cat flaps, building toys
got a comic on quite fun things.

And then, yeah, about five years ago
joined a startup and got back into it.

Simon: I am not from a
quantum background at all.

So my background is in tech.

I've been all across various different
aspects of the tech industry.

And I've worked for some some very
big names as they transitioned the

sort of very big inflection points.

For example, I work with the leadership
team of Dell as they move from selling

laptops and desktops to consumers to
towards the journey to the public cloud.

I then worked with Ericsson during the
times where we were just getting out 3G

into every sort of part of the world and
transitioning to a 5G network everywhere.

And then most recently I worked
for Citrix, who believed that

everyone could work from any
device anywhere in the world.

And then the pandemic happened and.

everybody had to do that.

And I guess the thing that I found
through my career is that's a really

exciting place to be when we're about
to see this huge shift in technology.

along that journey, I've also sort
I've been quite an advocate for

open source technology, worked
with a lot of open source groups,

built some open source products.

And so in forming OpenQuantum together
with Robin, it's that perfect blend at

this particular moment in the industry
where we're about to see a big shift

in how we think of technology, how
we start thinking of different types

of technology like quantum computing.

And.

Really wild ideas are needed and lots of
brains to the problems that we've got.

And as far as OpenQuantum is concerned,
Robin and I together, despite the fact

we've known each other for a long time,
it's the sort of perfect opportunity

right now to break down some of those
barriers and accelerate and enjoy

sort of the opportunities that are
ahead for the whole of the industry.

Dan: Thanks both.

I just, my observation is I think it's
a good, it's a good combination to have

somebody from the classical it world and
the open source world in this case, of

course, and the quantum domains to create
quite a formidable set of co founders.

Robin, can I come back to you
and just you said cat flaps and.

Comic Con and just threw
those comments away.

I've got to ask about, give
me a bit more detail on those.

Robin: I left academia, I spent quite a
long time thinking what am I going to do?

I've got this, physics
background experimental physics.

So I, I did the usual kind of
interviewing for, consultancies

and tech startups in Cambridge.

And then I got the recruiter emailed
me saying This company, they make

cat flaps, but keep an open mind.

And yeah, I went along and it had
been founded by a physicist and he

invented this cool new RFID circuit.

And I joined them to develop
new kind of sensors and

technology for their like smart.

Pet care products, so
that's yeah cat flaps.

It's pet feeders that kind of thing
which is really really good fun.

And it's a surprisingly large
amount of money in making cat

products and then after a few
years, I wanted to change again.

I thought right.

Okay, let's go back to something
sciency interviewed and then the same

recruiter came back and said i've got
this weird job, but Keep an open mind

and it was a company and they made
functional prop replicas and toys.

So they started off by making a
Harry Potter wand, which when you

wave at the TV, it's like a TV
remote, but it's motion controlled.

So you'd change the TV channel.

And then they moved into things
like a Star Trek Bluetooth

communicator and phaser.

And so yeah, I worked there for a few
years making props from Fallout 76.

And Rick and Morty and other things.

And yeah, I ended up going to Comic Con
and showing these, these products off.

And so you're sort of trying to
infuse a bit of electronics and magic

into these kind of prop replicas.

But it's sort of funny actually because
that job I actually happened to share

an office with the founder of there's
the quantum computing startup company.

I joined river lane and so that's
how I got to know those guys and then

made that transition back into quantum
Purely by just sharing an office and

having a beer at christmas party.

Dan: well, It's often
how it happens, isn't it?

uh, it looks like, sounds like
you've got a good recruiter there in

Robin: Yeah, it was really good

Dan: If you want a crazy
job to do that's off piste.

I think I had one of those
cat flaps as well, by the way.

Robin: yeah,

Yeah, they're good cat flaps, but it
was a useful time because I think going

back into quantum, there's a lot of
scientists and, quantum computing people.

But having that, spending that
time building products, especially

prop replicas, where no one needs a
functional Star Trek replicating, phaser.

But, so you have to make them
really desirable products there.

A really cool, and you see
it and you really want it.

So you have to spend a lot of time
thinking how would the customer be.

Impressed by this.

How are they?

How do you get them to look at me?

Like I really want to spend loads of
money on this thing I really need but

I can tell my wife that it's functional
because it can change the tv channel and

so it really puts you in that mindset of
making products, but with The customer

mind and that experience in mind.

And so kind of really was a good education
in making like real world products

and that kind of world, not just the
science and, it's a cool experiment to

demonstrate something, but that also
product aspects, which was really,

yeah, I learned a lot doing that.

Dan: yeah, I imagine I could, yeah.

All that stuff's really valuable that
maybe they don't teach you at university

when you're doing a PhD, product
management, go to market, all those kinds

Robin: Yeah, and it's that, it's that
change of mindset from you spend, two

years building an experiment, you get
a result, you publish a paper throw all

that away, start again to, okay, you're
making this thing, but it has to cost,

it has to cost 20 pounds at the factory
gate, and you have to make a hundred

thousand of them, and all 100, 000 have
to work every time for the next two

years in the kitchen being kicked around.

So it's that kind of change that mindset
from, Doing something once and getting

a great result of doing something a
hundred thousand times for no money.

And really robustly it's that kind of, and
I think that's what the quantum, you know,

it's what the quantum industry is trying
to do is take those experiments where

you've done a great, high fidelity two
qubit gate, but okay, now how do I do that

every time, all day long, in a HPC center?

Dan: Absolutely.

Robin: that's much harder than making a
cat flap, but it's still that transition.

Dan: It's the same problem.

Yeah, it's a great analogy.

And um, Yeah that's, that's
great to hear you describe that.

So we're here for OpenQuantum
. Let me open the mic.

I give you the floor if you like.

Give me the pitch for OpenQuantum.

Why have you built this startup?

What is the problem you're solving
and uh, what are the solutions that

you're envisaging in, in the future
that you're gonna come out of it.

Simon: I can kick us off here.

I mean, I think one of the things
I noticed as an outsider from the

quantum industry looking in is that
there's been tremendous progress just

in the last few years really like
scientific advancements, companies

who are creating amazing new products.

And that's awesome.

It's getting us closer and closer towards
Where we can see quantum advantage Being

applied to applications that really
can change the world the challenge has

been that a lot of that has happened
in isolation and a lot of that that the

advancement has happened through private
investment through You know closed IP And

that really locks out a lot of great ideas
and a lot of innovation that could be used

otherwise which is where You OpenQuantum
sees the opportunity ahead in opening up

the software stack and allowing people to
come in from the broader tech community,

as well as the scientific community.

We can accelerate what we need to do.

And so OpenQuantum really is about
a collaborative approach to building

quantum computers that that others
can come in there and build on top of.

And we believe firmly that, that's
the approach that will help us to

get to where we need to get to.

If you look at the data centers of
the world, you look at, every piece

of tech that, that is ubiquitous,
It runs on open source architecture.

Linux runs every data center
in the world, for example.

And we think the same thing should
be true in the quantum industry.

We know the same thing should
be true in the quantum industry.

Dan: Okay.

it's a collaborative approach.

How similar is that going to be,
do you think to the traditional

IT open source community?

Do you see as a kind of
parallel type of effort?

Yeah, how are you planning
to drive it forward?

Simon: We already are in discussions
that we have through GitHub.

We have a strong relationship with GitHub.

We have a number of projects that
we're running with our friends there.

To be able to bring together the
community who are working on other

open source projects who could perhaps
become maintainers or builders of future

products but also to find folks who are
looking to change up their career and

looking for something that's new and
exciting for them to get involved in.

So I think that we're
already on that journey.

We're actually, we're seeing
quite a lot of traction already.

There are also a number of great
open source products out there.

Some really smart people from very world
renowned labs, government labs and big

university labs have already done quite a
lot to progress the open source software.

And so really what we're trying to do
with OpenQuantum is to pull the best of

all of that together in order to, build
really useful applications that can be

applied to the challenges we've got.

And I know that Robin has spent a lot of
time in that space during his time most

recently in the quantum industry as well.

Robin: Yeah, I think just to echo Simon's
point, there's, there is great work

that's been done in the open source space.

And so yeah, bringing that together
and show highlighting that and

showing that off and then using
that to accelerate everyone.

And I think there's a lot of
effort being put into that.

Wasted at the minute with people
basically reinventing the wheel.

Different labs, different academic labs,
different commercial companies, all

building pretty much the same thing.

That's not really getting us closer
to fault tolerant quantum computing.

It's, might be getting them a bit closer
to the, near term goals, that's sort a

wasted effort and, millions of VC funds
wasted not really progressing it as fast

as it could be where if we can take those
foundational building blocks and make

that open or take what's already open
there and promote that We can then focus

on the harder problems of implementing
error correction And how do you control

ten thousand one hundred thousand qubits
all of these problems that we've got?

We've yet to overcome, focus
our efforts there rather than on

reinventing an AWG for the 10th time.

I think that's I think how we see
using the open source projects

is that it's to do that legwork
that doesn't need to be redone.

Dan: Do you know what I think would
make it really tacit for me and the,

and the listeners would be, if you
could describe some of the existing

projects that are out there that are
already public just in a few different

domains, and then perhaps Oh, there's
some categories that you're building of

like different types of software sets.

And what's that going to
look like going forward?

Cause you mentioned one there, one
use case, but I imagine there's

probably a whole handful on there

Robin: Yeah.

I mean, I think there's open source,
there's so many different open source

projects and from every level in the
stack, I think where we're focusing At

the bottom of the stack, so what that
means is if you've got a trapped ion

quantum computer, or a neutral atom
quantum computer, or a superconducting

quantum computer, then it's, it's
really the bit that interfaces

with that qubit, that quantum part.

Either that's manipulating a
laser, or a microwave pulse so it's

really at a very low analog level.

And I think, the common examples or the
ones most known, so in ion trapping, you

have something called Arctic and this
is a range of hardware called Sonara

Hardware, and these are, cost effective
open source hardware modules you can buy

and you can build a control system and
configure and then use the Arctic software

to run your experiment and this has
been extremely popular in ion trapping.

I think pretty much every ion trap
group in the world uses Arctic.

So that's a really great example of
exactly what can be done with open source.

In, in the superconducting world, I
think it's a bit earlier, but you've got

two, I think two big notable projects
at that level, which is called cubic.

And then there's another one called kick.

Um, And again, these are open source
projects that run on FPGA hardware.

And.

Can control your superconducting qubits.

And these are earlier and less adopted
than Arctic, but they're gaining real

traction because of all the, these open
benefits you get from using these systems.

Dan: that really helps.

Yeah.

So that I'm getting a feel for the, kind
of the undercurrent of all these different

bits of software that are being used.

And it's now creating that into
one big movement, essentially,

Robin: exactly.

And that's really what they're doing.

And it's saying, okay this sort
of ultimately it will be the

driver level of your computer.

It will be the black box at the bottom.

You don't know anything about and
it's about, taking those open source

projects and building them out to
incorporate that to get it to the

point where it becomes utility scale.

And then you have all the problems
on top of it, which we're not

focusing on yet because that bit of
the bottom keeps getting reinvented.

Simon: I guess just to double down on
this subject usually the open source

community suffers from a similar problem.

No matter what part of open
source software you look at,

there's great things out there.

There's great software that somebody
has taken the time and effort to build.

And then the adoption in the community
determines how successful that is.

When you get to a point where there's
a really valuable use case for that

particular piece of software You can then
accelerate the quality and the kind of,

maintenance of that software, and it can
become commercial grade product comparable

to something you might buy on a license.

To give you a flavor of this in a
previous life I, I used to work on

a number of humanitarian projects.

What we used to do was to take
existing open source operating systems.

tailor that for specifically bringing
education out to the developing world,

pair that with access to the networking
industry and access to internet access.

And that becomes a really powerful
tool with a very low bar to entry

that folks can then start to adopt.

And we saw this kind of.

Almost snowball effect with hundreds
of thousands of people adopting that

platform using that and then once that
user adoption happens, then you get the

exciting part where you get somebody
coming up with something brilliant and new

that's added to that, that they can build
because there aren't the constraints of.

Financial constraints or knowledge
constraints you might have in trying to

adopt a piece of proprietary software.

And the same thing is really
true in the quantum industry.

Pulling some of these great open
source tools out and elevating

visibility to the broader community.

And then galvanizing that community
around the challenges we've got.

That's what OpenQuantum is all about.

And that's what's needed to bring
these things to a level of ubiquity.

Dan: Awesome.

So I'm imagining, and this is probably
unfair of me, but I'm imagining like

bringing all these tools together
and not developing necessarily an

operating system like Linux, but
perhaps some kind of collective way of

the different tools working together
or packaged together, or perhaps

it's the community that drives that.

So you can't really say what's
the end result is going to be.

The.

The first step is to bring
it all together somehow.

Right.

Simon: Yeah, absolutely.

So building that foundation, building
that kind of core operating system that's

exactly what OpenQuantum is focused
on today, and Gen 1 is there from the

perspective of the work that we've done
with the existing open source projects,

but we definitely need more brains to
the party to help develop this further.

And then where it gets really exciting
is that combination between the

software and the Qubit itself because
of the layer that we're operating on

management of the Qubit, measurement
of the Qubit, these are all things that

are super critical and evolution of
the science is happening in real time.

So we're, we're really sort of
excited to be on the journey together

with the rest of the industry.

But then applying a totally
different approach to how we

built this stuff out than others.

Dan: And how do you think what is it
you need to build the community wise?

I imagine you have people that own
particular software, pieces of software,

libraries, platforms, whatever.

Are they all volunteers or do you end
up hiring people to lead a little bit,

or perhaps just help with coordination?

How does that look?

Simon: It's it's both of course we as a
company we are Actively looking at you

know engineering fpga type resources to
build up products for our internal team

but equally it's valuable for us to have
folks who do this in their spare time

and, have a passion around this project
and the things that we want to achieve.

So it is a bit of both.

And I think that in order for us to be
successful in this space, it requires

us to take commercial approach because
if you do the opposite and you just

say well, let's let the community drive
this often the repo gets neglected.

issues go unanswered.

And ultimately you've got a graveyard
in GitHub of projects like that.

So that's why we are a for profit company.

We believe in investing in this,
building the products that future.

And in order to do that we drive a
combination of in house participation

in OpenQuantum, but also looking
at slightly more innovative ways

that we galvanize the community.

And, we even reward community members
for contributing to these projects.

Robin: And I think it might be worth I
think imagining the situation I think we

view these tools as well our toolbox so
Rather than saying to a lab or a company.

Here's a finished product.

It just works.

It's a black box go.

It's more here's, some robust Open
source tools you can trust and that

are tested and are maintained And
build that what build with that what

you need to do your experiment or your
build your quantum computer Because

I don't think every lab is different.

Every qubit type is a bit different.

Everyone has slightly different Interests
and different expertise and different IP.

So a one size fits all
solution doesn't really work.

I think that's reflected.

If you look at the industry in terms
of the sort of the tools and the things

they're building internally at the minute.

And so it's more about saying
here's some open source tools.

And you can use them as you
wish, rather than prescribing a,

here's a product that's a black
box that, you slide into a rack.

So I think that it's slightly different
from a, yeah, just imagining a finished

kind of plug and play solution.

Dan: Yeah, it makes sense.

And I have to ask the modality question.

Is there a particular modality that
you'd be steering towards or is your,

like you said, this is a toolbox,
so I imagine the tools are useful in

multiple different systems, depending
on what it is you're building.

And that probably also
includes the qubit type

Robin: Yeah.

So I think, it really is driven
by the different projects.

You have Arctic already, that's great.

To be honest, we're not really doing
anything in that space because it's

already very well established, very
well maintained and it's going we're,

and then it has looked at a lot at the
sort of the superconducting systems,

but also you can adapt those as well.

So whilst they originally started
as very much a superconducting

focused control system, how can you
potentially use that for ion traps

or neutral atoms or other systems?

I think that's an interesting
route of exploration we want to go

on because can you take benefits
from one and mix it with another?

Can you have some kind
of hybrid, solution?

I think that'd be quite an
interesting thing to explore.

Can you build a Frankenstein
of the best of everything?

I don't know.

Simon: I think the neutral atom
space is particularly exciting

right now because there's a lot of
progress being made particularly

over the last couple of years.

There's also a lot of interconnective
aspects of what you do for neutral atoms

that then has a knock on effect to how you
build for ion traps or superconducting.

A good example is if you look at how you
build error corrected qubits in a neutral

atom set up, you have longer coherence
time, you have more time to basically

be able to work on error correction
than you do in a superconducting set up.

So really we're trying to be as
agnostic as possible at the same time.

We are actively pursuing opportunities
to develop the science around some of

those, let's call them slower qubit
types so that we can then, accelerate

the industry in general, but at the
same time is doing that, looking at

that interoperability between neutral
atoms, superconducting, ion traps and

photonics, for example, playing a big
part in connecting connective tissue, if

you like, between uh, different qubits.

Dan: Yeah, nice.

So I feel like I have to
also ask you about IP.

Because like you said, it's
a very IP heavy market.

Everybody's.

developing IP for their system.

Maybe they're releasing papers
once they've filed the patent.

That's the type of thing.

Obviously this is a
totally different paradigm.

And there might be some hiccups
at some point with things which

are developed in the open source
community, which overlap with IP.

I'm asking because I know nothing
really about how an open source

community would deal with that.

I mean, uh, what's your, What's your take?

Simon: I think there's
plenty of stories out there.

And again, this is where it's really
important for us to look at adjacent

tech and how this is approached.

If you look at for example, In classical
computing, you've got tools like Raspberry

Pi, where you have a proprietary hardware
platform, open source Linux distributions

that you can apply on the top of that,
and people have created all kinds of weird

and wonderful inventions using that combo.

And at one point, Raspberry Pi
became one of the most successful

computer manufacturers in
the world through that model.

So I think, I think there's a bit
that we learn from adjacent industry

and how we build the products.

There's also whilst there is some degree
of OpenQuantum that will be Closed IP.

I think the important part is to be very
purposeful on what you close and what

you keep open, which is where perhaps
others in the industry have swung

more towards the closed source purely
because it's just the simpler option.

We're risk takers.

So what can I say?

Like we see that we see the
benefit of doing this and doing

this in a very purposeful way as
part of the core of our model.

But it's not for everybody.

Dan: Okay.

You're talking about the
mission there, Simon.

I've got to ask on your website I
think one of your bold statements

is, is you want to change the world.

I guess that's because of the promise
of quantum computing and some of the

algorithms that have been designed
and will be implemented at some point

on systems that can handle them.

Is there anything you
wanted to add to that?

Talking about the, your mission
um, Is there more to it than that?

Or is, if I summarised it nicely.

Simon: Well, let's be real.

There are algorithms out there
that have the potential to

change what humanity can do.

And to remove some of the
limitations that we see.

I'm I'm very clear to say potential
because let's be real about where we are.

A lot of this stuff is very
emerging tech, emerging science.

That's why if you listen to
how Robin and I described this

there's a lot of experiments that
are being done at the moment.

So I think it's important to ground
ourselves in the fact that we've

still got more than a mountain to
climb to reach quantum advantage.

At the same time, it's really
important that the broader world

gets excited about what quantum is.

that doesn't see this as science fiction
and that understands that potentially

applying a Grover's algorithm or a
Shor's algorithm has the potential to do

things in ways we never thought would be
possible using using classical computing.

And so that's really the sort of
overriding purpose of OpenQuantum.

How can we achieve some of those lofty
goals that we want to for humanity?

And we want Others who are outside of
quantum to recognize that, but those who

are within quantum to see the opportunity
of working with our products and

solutions, which they wouldn't otherwise
be able to accelerate the journey towards

exploring some of these use cases.

Robin: And I think also on a personal
note, I think it's a really difficult

journey and without setting that
really big goal of trying to do it.

What gets me up in the morning is to do
something big and I don't want to Put

myself and my family and simon through
all of this if we're not going to really

try and change the world that's the point.

So we've got to set that ambition.

Dan: And one of the things I hear is,
you because it's such a big problem.

I like the phrase, it needs a village.

I think that's what you're doing here
is, is essentially corralling the village

together and tackling things bit by
bit, which is the, ultimately the way to

go with, with a problem that's so big.

So we spoke about GitHub as a partner.

Are there other partners that you're,
that you can talk about or, We'd be

interested to I'd be interested to hear
about, are you looking specifically at

software development companies or is there
what's happening in the hardware space?

How does your partner ecosystem look?

Simon: Yeah, there are a range of
commercial and government partners

that OpenQuantum works with Probably
one of our greatest advocates has been

through the UK government with the NQCC.

And we really enjoyed working
with them from very early on

in the company's inception.

We found the UK is very passionate about.

Doing this and investing not only in the
academic space, but also in the commercial

world with companies like us we have an
office up in Oxford in the Harwell campus

as well as part of being in an incubator
with the NQCC and that has, It's really

allowed us to be able to pretty quickly
collaborate and accelerate some of the

product development that we wanted to do.

But it's even more exciting when you hear
leaders in government and leaders within

the scientific community advocating for
us to come together between academia

and commercial with the government as
the kind of driving force behind that.

That doesn't happen very
often in any industry.

So to have the appetite and
then to have others, even

from, outside the UK community.

Joining that party.

You look at how the U.

N.

Year of quantum is coming up.

There's a strong focus in the U.

K.

Kind of, being part of that that
journey to so really, I think that

probably describes there's a good
opportunity to collaborate across

industry, academia and government
at this particular moment in time.

And that's really a lot of our strategy.

Dan: Yeah, it is impressive
what the NQCC are doing.

It's a bit like you know,
there's the satellite.

Kind of cluster there.

And it's another cluster developing.

Is a shame that we don't, haven't actually
launched a rocket from the UK yet, I think

of any meaningful scale, but hopefully
that's it's different in the quantum

world uh, especially with the investment
in multiple quantum computing platforms

that are going to be implemented there.

I guess that's like a
playground for you, isn't it?

Almost

Robin: absolutely.

Absolutely.

It's it's all the toys and it's great
to just you know, as simon said we have

an office there So it's super easy to
just walk across the campus and have

a chat with someone and get that kind
of You Quick insight and feedback.

Yeah, it's great.

Dan: good.

And how long is the incubation for you?

Is it a

year

Robin: Uh, 18 months, I believe.

Dan: Okay, very nice.

And you're in the first cohort, right?

Robin: So this is the
first quantum BIC cohort.

Um, I think they've had the space one
that has run for a long time and I

think they're opening up a few more
AI and things like that, I believe.

But yeah, this is the first
cohort of quantum companies.

Simon: It's good to mention as well.

There's a, there's an appetite
across the NQCC, actually across

all of the SDFC group you saw
UK innovation group there for

collaboration to happen across industry.

Sort of discussion with the folks in
the space, Qubit discussion with the

folks who are out there in, looking
at AI, but equally some of those

use cases we touched on earlier.

But Moderna has an office
on that Harwell campus.

For example, there's
pharmaceutical research.

There's research into cybersecurity
into materials discovery, all those

things that we hope to achieve
with quantum computing, all working

together with their own innovations.

It's just a great place to to be to
help spark ideas and then also to

collaborate, to bring those ideas to life.

Dan: Yeah, I didn't know about
the kind of the end customer.

ecosystem that's there.

So that's interesting,
especially if they've got quantum

research teams there as well.

That'd be the ultimate, wouldn't it?

Okay.

Uh, let's, move on if we can to a
few questions that I like to ask.

I've started this a few episodes
ago, a few interviews ago.

And I'm putting you on
the spot here, Robin.

Especially as you may not have prepped
for this, but are there any particular

papers you've worked on academically
that you'd like to highlight?

Or maybe a particular experimental
piece of work that you've done

that you'd like to highlight.

I guess it goes back to
your ion trapping days.

Robin: I was on a couple of papers yeah,
back in my PhD days, but there, I would

say they're very out of date now to
what, the modern state of ion trapping.

But yeah, I had a, I had
a, an ion trapping paper on

um, so I did a bit of work.

After we built the lab and trapped
some ions, I did a bit of work on

early microfabricated surface traps.

So this was, this is, yeah, quite
early in the days of these devices.

As I said, very much more primitive than
you get today, but, I built a 2D array

one, so it had an array of hexagons,
and above each hexagon you could trap

an ion, so we trapped a small 2D array
of ions in this 2D hexagon trap, which,

yeah, I was pretty proud of at the time.

And yeah, but it's, but I quite like
it because at the time that was great

and I was quite excited to do that and
it was a nice way to finish my PhD.

But then to see from then back in
what, whenever that was 2010 or

something to now, you get these like
amazing, huge traps with, all these

electrodes and shuttling and, the stuff
that Honeywell are coming out with.

And it's it's just like so night and
day from the things I was building

in my PhD to the things that, are
being commercially deployed now.

It's amazing.

Dan: Yeah.

It does go to show how quickly the
industry is moving when it comes

to the hardware side, even though.

People often say, you know,
we're waiting for the hardware.

It is developing very

Robin: Oh, it is.

I'm not going to lie.

Sleep, you know, like being in the
lab all night trying to trap ions.

And then um, it was hard to
imagine actually ever getting

to where we are today, let alone
where it's going to be, you know.

it's such a tough road to travel and
so that progress is really amazing.

And so it's made even more impressive
when you know how painful it is to do.

Dan: Yeah, I imagine.

Yeah.

I'm trying to think of an analogy.

Can you give us one for how
difficult and intricate the task is?

Robin: I don't know, I think the analogy
I like to use for quantum computing is

It's like spinning plates, so you have
one plate, and you're spinning that on

a pole, and you're continually tweaking
that pole to keep the plate balanced.

And then you add another plate, and
another, and so you've basically

got all of these spinning plates,
which are your qubits, and you're

continually having to tweak.

And every time you add another one it's
just growing and growing in complexity.

And so now you have like, just trapping
one plate and spinning that is very hard.

But then, imagine scaling
up that to thousands.

So how do you keep tweaking
all those little tweaks you

have to make to every plate?

That's the analogy I like to use because
it sort of, it feels quite intuitive.

But I don't know if that comes true.

Dan: So possibly some of the
software that comes out of

OpenQuantum could be a machine that
does the plate spinning for you.

Robin: Yeah well, I mean, that crudely
is that if I was to explain that to

a seven year old, that's how they

Dan: Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Robin: Because it's, it's
that same thing of each one.

It's an analog system that you
need to continually feedback to, to

maintain and do that a million times.

Dan: That's about the right level
for me then as well, which is great.

So the next question is about influential
pieces of work in the quantum domain.

Is, are there any papers or perhaps
individuals that have really

inspired you or potential pieces
of work, which kind of blew your

mind that you'd like to call out?

Same goes to you, Simon.

I'm sure there's some research you've
done where that's been the case.

Robin: I think for me, I can't
on the spot, I can't think of a

particular instance, but I think as
I was just saying, I think really

it's seeing, like the new Quantinuum
50, qubit process are coming out.

And so seeing these devices,
especially the ion trap where I

have that kind of background in.

I think so it's, it's not particularly
a specific paper or an instance, but

it's just seeing those devices coming
online do inspire me and blow my mind.

Cause I'm like, okay.

My kind of glass half full
Tendencies or half empty.

Sorry hot tendencies
tend to get shut down.

I'm like, okay.

No, look if that's possible Yeah,
we can do this, you know if they can

do it then, you know, why can't we?

so yeah, I think those are the things
that kind of inspire me and You know

motivated me to found this company
with simon and I think it's that

continual Every couple of months.

There's some mind blowing
demonstration there a few years ago.

You thought would be impossible

Simon: Yeah, and it's interesting that
the combination between Robin and I and

perspectives I've done a lot of reading to
be able to Understand the tiniest amount

of quantum computing that I understand
today But where I get really excited is

where people do extremely bold if I think
about the academic space there was a paper

out of California Institute of Technology
recently with a very large number of over

6, 000 tweezer array using neutral atoms.

That's pretty exciting and pretty cool.

Those are the things that are
really exciting for me and

coming into this industry.

And between, Robin and I, I think
those are a lot of the things that

drive us forward and inspire us to
be able to build our products and

solutions that then can connect into
both the academic and the commercial

innovations that are being made.

Dan: So you see all this
amazing opportunity.

What do you see as a vision as like
the future of quantum computing?

Obviously it's open source, but any kind
of forward looking statements you'd like

to make on a vision of where it could go.

Simon: I think if you look at the journey,
the tech industry has been on in the last

10 years, it's a lot about what needs to
happen in the quantum computing world.

So if you go back just in that recent
history, You used to have people

believing that you had to have one
physical device from one or two brands.

It would be in your home or
in your office, depending

on what you're trying to do.

And you had to pay for the software and
the hardware, and you were stuck with

the constraints of what that looked like
based on whatever a company decided.

Versus today, where actually you
have all these interconnected

parts in the public cloud.

Almost everything in the world,
whether it's knowledge, technology,

access to information or enabling to
a technology is accessible to anybody.

And that allows for new things to happen.

So I guess in the future,
the way I see it is that.

This industry becomes much more closely
connected, and there are intersections

between all of the various different
aspects of technology that are being

built that allow the end user just to
be able to go out there and do stuff and

build stuff that they want to work with
and that's a very exciting place to be

in the same way that we now just accept
that the internet is everywhere, that

we can draw on the world's information
at our fingertips, that we can go into

the middle of nowhere and ourselves.

Those kind of things we
just take for granted today.

I believe that when we get there, the
quantum industry is going to feel similar.

I've

Robin: Yeah, I I think, again, with my
more like, physics hat on, I get, I get

really excited about the kind of the low
level technology, and I think, I was, I

think, exciting about the future is, I
don't think we yet know what the quantum

computer, the really useful fault tolerant
quantum computer actually looks like.

I don't think anyone, is it
going to be a trapped ion?

Is it going to be a
superconducting circuit?

I don't think, I don't know, if I had to
put a wild bet, I would say it's something

we don't really actually know yet.

It's going to be something quite
different or a bit, unusual or

something we haven't discovered yet
or some new, I don't know, something.

I think that's quite exciting.

It's, there's so many discoveries to be
had that yeah, it's impossible to tell

today what breakthroughs are going to be.

Dan: It's good to hear both of
your visions don't include a huge

amount of hype, which is great.

There's some realism in there,
but it's, it's excitement for

how things are going to pan out.

I also like to ask, you know, what,
what do you do to wind down, to

disconnect from science or disconnect
from your business in this case?

Robin: We both have small kids,
so I've got a nine month old.

She's about two weeks
older than the company.

So I think my unwinding tends to
be childcare, baby care things

like that, which is great.

Bike rides, drinking
heavily with Simon the

usual.

Dan: Not all at the same time, I guess.

Robin: Well, you know,

You mix it.

Beer in one hand, baby in the other.

Why not?

Dan: Whilst on a bike.

Robin: those are the things.

Actually, we've started rock
climbing at a local rock

climbing gym, which is quite fun.

That's quite, quite a nice way to have
a work meeting while climbing a rock.

Simon: I've been a climber a few
years and then I, you know, took

Robin along, reignited his love for
rock climbing from when we were kids.

We've actually known each other
for over 20 years Robin and I.

But we Went off in different
directions and then sort of

ended up in the same town.

So, uh, I have an 18
month old baby as well.

So that keeps me fairly busy.

I started playing the drums
a couple of years ago.

So whenever I get a minute, the other side
of this uh, this screen is is my drum kit.

And then.

Otherwise I also recently learned to
ride a bike motorbike, but I did that

by buying the Harley Davidson first and
then taking my lessons and learning.

So I'm still in very early cautious
days with that, but trying to get

out on the road when the summer
eventually hits us in the UK.

Dan: Yeah, a biker with young
children is a cautious biker for sure.

That's all I say on the matter.

But yeah, thanks for that, guys.

I really appreciate it.

I think we'll just wrap up now.

So I'll just say thank you
very much for joining me.

It was a really interesting chat.

I'm keen to see how you progress and
what comes out of the NQCC with the work

you're doing with them in due course.

Simon: Thanks for having us, Dan.

Uh, Really great to chat to you

Robin: Yeah, really Great.

Dan: I'd like to take this moment to
thank you for listening to the podcast.

Quantum networking is such a broad domain
especially considering the breadth of

quantum physics and quantum computing all
as an undercurrent easily to get sucked

into So much is still in the research
realm which can make it really tough for

a curious IT guy to know where to start.

So hit subscribe or follow me on your
podcast platform and I'll do my best

to bring you more prevalent topics
in the world of quantum networking.

Spread the word.

It would really help us out